0:00Will these Rookies be League Winners? That's what we're talking about today on an upside down version of The Long View.
0:06I'm Ben Gretch. You can find the Stealing Signals newsletter at BenGretch.substack.com.
0:09With me as always is Jakob Sanderson. You can find his fantastic Thinking About Thinking newsletter at JacobSanderson.substack.com.
0:14Had a really fun article yesterday that I got a chance to read through.
0:17You did a Take Purge, which is always a fun kind of like unique content that gets a lot out there.
0:23Agreed on a lot of them. Found myself nodding along, enjoying a lot of them.
0:27Found myself, you know, seeing a few that are like, you know, some stuff that we had talked about that were fun.
0:33You went through every team. Also rage baited a little bit on a couple like your Juwan Johnson one.
0:38But what are we going to do? We'll have to move on from that.
0:42We're talking rookies today. I can't do a whole thing on how Juwan Johnson.
0:46You were mad about Juwan Johnson's target share. And then two weeks ago, he has five catches, four yards and highest target share of the year.
0:53And a run heavy game plan. And then suddenly you're like, well, I was right that he's doesn't have a role anymore.
0:59But I'm also the high guy in the room on him.
1:02You did the thing where you're like, I drafted him a bunch.
1:05Oh, you tilted me so much. You tilted me so much.
1:08Anyway, how are you doing? We're going to. So the, you know what?
1:11I just got us disappointed that Juwan Johnson had zero catches for zero yards this week.
1:15They had a negative 10% pure OE and their quarterback has a broken hand.
1:19No one ever said he can't have one bad week.
1:22Great receivers have bad weeks. There's variance in this stuff.
1:25He actually had a higher snap share than target share.
1:27There's new or then route share. There's nuance here where they've actually played him on some rundowns.
1:32Broadly, you're the flex tight end stuff has worked your favor a lot.
1:35Dalton Kincaid, Kenyon Sadiq. I think Friarmoot is really going to lose a lot more going forward because of Bernard and Darno.
1:41If you have Darno Washington, you have Bernard. Or don't Schultz like his routes are at a season low because they have Jalen Noel.
1:48You lose to the slot receiver and then you have some blocking tight ends.
1:51These teams that have blocking tight ends, it becomes a problem.
1:54There's one more. Oh, Flannoy. It just like is taking over the outlet role over Jake Ferguson.
1:59I think that's not, that's not a flex tight end.
2:02That's just a Jake Ferguson stinks issue. Like he was also, he was also splitting the starting tight end role with Brevin Span forward.
2:08I think he's just terrible. He's, he's just fair.
2:11Is it a different category? But I do think broadly, the conversation has moved your direction since I kind of did a
2:16victory lap a couple of weeks ago where I was like the flex tight ends are the ones that are scoring or Harold Fannin.
2:23Harold Fannin is not scoring any points. I mean, it's, it's been, it's been tough.
2:27A couple of weeks for the flex tight ends.
2:29As we check in on this conversation. I see it likely who, who he's like, people talk about Brock Bowers wide receiver.
2:35I see it likely he's even more of a receiver.
2:38I'm maybe I said he's even right. Cause I just saw it on Twitter and I didn't check it.
2:43But, um, someone said that he's been at a 3% in line alignment on his routes this year.
2:48I haven't, I'm writing an in season split. Maybe that's like from, from some week and I'm misappropriating the stat.
2:53So if, if that's true, I'm sorry, but like it's feels true anyway, watching the games.
2:58Cause he's, I literally have that receiver. I have that data up 77.7% slot in line 5.4%.
3:02It's a career low by a lot. I'm writing the in season field tippers this week.
3:06Need to get that finished. Didn't get it done last week.
3:09Cause it was a big waiver week. We're going to talk about a lot of the, the way this was the felt
3:15like the biggest waiver week of the year. And we were talking, you were like, I can't remember a year where week
3:21six is, you know, the biggest waiver week of the year.
3:24And I kind of feel the same, especially for these deeper formats, but it does make a little sense in respect of
3:30all the things we talked about, about like all off season.
3:33And then the longer like concepts of, you know, rookies that do emerge and things, but all off season, we talked about
3:39these offenses being more spread and having a bunch of different formational stuff and different things they can get to.
3:44And so it maybe took a little bit more for teams to show their cards a little bit or to find things that they actually like or whatever.
3:52But I mean, that gets back to the joint.
3:54You were right about the flux stuff, but the John Johnson thing to me is like, yeah, I mean, when they go
4:00negative 10% PR, we, they're going to, they're not going to use a ton of John Johnson.
4:05Like teams are going to do different formational stuff in different game scripts and different things.
4:09This was a game where, you know, they were behind a little early, but Jameis Winston starts throwing picks.
4:14They get short fields. They hit on some explosives like that.
4:17Yakety sacks, Alvin Kamara, 31 yard screen touchdown where everyone just fell down around him.
4:21Um, but like the, like that you're not going to have a lot of like passing to Juwan.
4:26I mean, it was, it wasn't a great game for a lot of hands up hitting on a fade late, but like
4:32you mentioned in your piece, Vela was down as well.
4:35Like it wasn't a great game for pass volume.
4:37They had 25 pass attempts the week prior. If you want to go back to that one.
4:42Um, cause that was one where he only had five targets, but it was actually a 20.
4:46Percent or 21%, depending on how you look at target share, if you count throwaways or not.
4:51But, um, it was a season high target share.
4:53We had talked to, I was laughing at that one when I was writing signals two weeks ago.
4:58Cause I was like, he had five targets, four catches only like 16 yards.
5:02And that's just regression. We talked about how good he'd been ball in hand and miss tackles forced and all this.
5:07And like, that's just regression on the yards per reception side, but five targets for receptions.
5:12If you average that as a Titan for a week, you're a top 10 volume Titan.
5:16You have 85 targets, 68 receptions on 17 games.
5:18Like obviously I've done a little bit of math on that before, but like 17 games, five targets, 85, like, or five receptions, 85 catches.
5:25You probably want an 85 catch bar for receivers, but for tight ends, four catches a game is actually 68 catches per game.
5:31It's top 10 every, every season. I mean, that's, that's solid.
5:34Um, so it's basically one down game for Juwan Johnson.
5:37And you're like thrown in the towel and capitulating and saying that all, it drove me nuts.
5:41Anyway, neither here nor there, the upside down. Let's spend another hour time with Juwan Johnson.
5:46God, I want to so bad. I should have talked to you about it before the show.
5:50Uh, the upside, we got, we got, we got a heart, we got a heart out today.
5:55So we, we have a heart out. We're starting earlier.
5:58You're like, God, he's, he's turned up. Jacob wrote a great take, uh, purge 32 teams.
6:02The other 31 are great. There's one that's horrible.
6:04I loved reading it. It was fantastic. The upside down show, um, that we're doing today.
6:09We're going to flip some of the things that we do.
6:12It just fits what we want to do this week.
6:14The short view is going to be one topic.
6:17The long view is going to be many topics.
6:19The, uh, short view is going to be me asking it instead of you asking it.
6:23You wrote a ton about the Colts this week.
6:26I actually didn't even know that you had written that or hadn't seen you publish it yet.
6:30When I asked you about this short view topic, because I wanted to get your thoughts.
6:35Chris bought, bought fired. We love to do as the Colts turn our, our, our, our melodrama, our soap opera now.
6:40And then I like to hear your takes on it.
6:43You sent me a thing that said that that piece was like two hours or four hours or something long for an audio listener.
6:49Yeah. I, I can't confirm this, but someone, uh, someone replied in the comments that they, they listened to because both of
6:55our sub stacks, like we don't record them as audio, but if you choose to listen to like whatever.
7:00Like AI voice they have, you can listen to it as, as it's being read out to you by, um, like I robot.
7:07And someone said that would was over two hours.
7:09So it was, it was, uh, I mean, it took, it, it, it, it took a while to write.
7:14I, it was cathartic. It was like, it was like basically my form of therapy over all of Monday and Tuesday.
7:20Um, so not a fantasy related post at all, but like, if you're listening to this and you listen to us do
7:26three to four hour podcasts every week, guessing you're somewhat of a football sicko.
7:29Uh, well, we're going to get into that one.
7:32We're going to get into some of it. Yes.
7:34The, the full thing, we can't go two hours on the Colts, the full thing.
7:38You're going to have to go to the, to the sub stack of the newsletter.
7:42But in terms of the short, we're going to make the short view, a little bit of a, like a long view,
7:48individual non football topic, sort of again, flipping it.
7:51The long view will be a game. Basically. Um, I've written before about my four quarters framework.
7:55We'll talk more about that in a second when we get to the concept, but we're going to go through all the
8:01different rookies and, and, and, and, and make a case in terms of what type of production we think they'll give you
8:07the rest of the way with that's quarter one, quarter two, quarter three production.
8:11We'll explain what that means as we get there, but we want to be able to work through them quickly.
8:16A lot of people talking about Omar Cooper, Antonio Williams, Jeremy Bernard, Jacoby lane this week.
8:21We also want to get to the guys who could be the next Omar Cooper.
8:25Antonio, like the big lesson of this week. I wrote it in my introduction is if you feel like you missed a
8:30boat on an Omar Cooper or on Jeremy Bernard or on Jacoby lane, there are more boats that have not left yet that could leave the rookies emerge.
8:38That's the lesson. There's a bunch of guys on IR that could come back that will do an injury return conversation.
8:44Jordan Tyson, Janarian price, Jonah Coleman's expected back to John striplings at longer term one.
8:48There are obvious high profile, interesting ones that have not been necessarily smashing like a McKay lemon or Kenyan Sadiq.
8:53And we'll have to place where we think they will finish.
8:56Um, Denzel Boston and Casey Concepcion. Those guys in Cleveland will fit there.
8:59I threw carnell Tate in that subcategory. He is smashing, but we'll see where he lands.
9:04I threw Jeremiah love and the injury return conversation.
9:06We'll also talk about him. And then, you know, as well, we do have kind of a hard out, but as we're
9:12going to try to work through them as quick as we can, there's some handcuffs.
9:16Emma Johnson, Mike Washington, Seth McGowan with the Jonathan Taylor trade, which I want.
9:20The big thing I want to ask you about is like, it was Seth McGowan was a fantasy implications.
9:25Could Jonathan Taylor get right? Cause you have your finger on the pulse of like the way that this organization operates.
9:31So there's a real interesting, what does it mean for fantasy for the Colts?
9:34If there's a full teardown conversation. And so it's a little bit of a longer, but it is a short view topic
9:40that we're going to go into in just a sec.
9:43But yes, the, there are also some deeper guys as well.
9:46We'll try to get to like a Ted Hearst, like a Cyrus Allen, like a Josh Cameron.
9:51There's the Miami guys, Zachariah branch had two fumbles this week.
9:53I don't know if he's even relevant. We'll probably won't get to him, but you go through all those names.
9:59I just mentioned there's 20 something rookies that like this was a, a, a panned rookie class for a lot of people in dynasty circles a lot.
10:06Like, I don't think any of those names are clearly off the fantasy radar.
10:10Like some of those last ones that I mentioned, maybe a little deep and some of the shallow leagues, maybe some of the handcuffs or whatever.
10:17Some of the other ones I mentioned, but like, as these other guys are hitting the McKay lemons in those shallow leagues are being cut.
10:24Kenyan Sadiqs are being like, they have to be like, everyone can't be rostered.
10:27Lemon got caught in a couple of my FFPC leagues this week.
10:31He's starting. People are starting to wave the white flag.
10:33So the IR guys are available. I just added Jordan Tyson this week in multiple home leagues.
10:38I've been talking about him, like he's rostered everywhere.
10:40And then I looked at my own leagues and I was like, he's still available in the leagues that don't have IR spots.
10:46John Stribling is going to be, he's available everywhere.
10:49He's available in FFPC. He's going to be somebody that's a longer term thing.
10:53Like when do you want to act on him?
10:55So we're going to go through all of that as our long view.
10:58I'm just laying it out there because typically at the top of the show, we do a lot of topics.
11:04I want to give you the floor to do one interesting topic to start.
11:08The Colts fired Chris Ballard. I've not had a chance to read your piece.
11:11You mentioned as an introduction in your take purge that you spent most of Monday and Tuesday writing about it.
11:17Sounded the way you described it. You're like, I don't even know if I can type anymore.
11:21I was like, it sounds like a stealing signals week for Jacob, but only about the Colts and Chris Ballard.
11:27The amount of research and writing that you did the hours.
11:30I was like, this sounds like, well, you know, I know this feeling very well that you're describing.
11:34Fantastic. Fantastic read. Just to hear you describe your process on it.
11:38You joke to me that we could talk about this forever and I'm going to have to cut you off because like
11:44you could go forever on the Colts. I, I, I want to let you go for it.
11:48Cause I want to know where you're at and what you think are the most relevant things.
11:53But I guess most centrally to prompt you, what does it mean for the 2026 fantasy landscape for the Colts going forward?
11:59You joked to me about Anthony Richardson a minute ago, like, or in, in a minute ago, it was, it was yesterday
12:05when we were talking through some waiver stuff. I guess I don't see, I'm going to give a small little take of my own.
12:11I guess I don't see that Shane Steichen is going to be coaching for his job.
12:15There was a report that a lot of people think he's going to be on the way out, but don't be so sure.
12:21There's the possibility. We talked about this a few weeks ago that we think Steichen's maybe got a little bit of a
12:27bad, a bad, um, whatever, uh, opportunity here or bad rap or I can't think of the word, but he hasn't necessarily been evaluated fairly.
12:34Obviously not really had the quarterback in place. He was kind of saddled with Anthony Richardson and wasn't really thrilled about that.
12:40Ended up moving off of Richardson and had a really successful offense last year with Daniel Jones, which is a pretty impressive
12:46notch on his resume for an offensive minded guy.
12:48And then Jones tears his Achilles. Like what are you going to do?
12:52First breaks his fibula, as you like to point out before the, the, the offense kind of started to crater.
12:57And then two weeks later, tears his Achilles, um, or a couple of weeks after the fibula injury, whatever.
13:02But, uh, um, he had two down games coming out of the pie and then tore the Achilles.
13:07It was really like a quick drop off. The first 10 games were fantastic is the point that I'm trying to make.
13:13This offense was humming last year, last year. I mean, it's not like it was years ago.
13:18It's not like we're talking, going back to 2023 to make a case.
13:21Coaches live off like 2023 results for three, four years later, all the time.
13:25Like there's, there's coaches that manage to keep jobs that they don't really deserve.
13:29Zach Taylor is still living off that Superbowl run.
13:3110 years later. Taylor's done, you know, a decent job.
13:34He's he's, I think he's improved over the years.
13:36He's maybe in an argument that, um, you know, give, give coaches Alicia's.
13:40I think he should have gotten fired years ago for the consistent failure of early season preparedness and, and a lot of
13:46other things, but, um, not how the Bengals operate regardless.
13:48Shane Steichen may get fired, but he may not.
13:51And so my little take here was he's going to be coaching for his job.
13:55His best shot to do that is definitely Daniel Jones.
13:57If he just puts Richardson out there and lets the whole thing bottom out, that's a problem.
14:02Tyler Warren's not on the trade block or anything.
14:04He's a year two guy. They're going to build around him.
14:07They're still going to have him and they're going to, they're going to try to have a successful passing game.
14:13Alec Pierce may or main, I'm assuming you think is not going to come back at this point.
14:18I don't know. He's, he's back. Um, not practicing, but he's like been seen walking around without a cast.
14:23I mean, the, the way that it was framed when he first got placed on IR was basically like, he might need another surgery and he might not.
14:30But whether he got the surgery immediately after that chiefs game or like six weeks later is not likely to affect his 2027 status.
14:37So they just figured we're going to try and see if we can rehab it and he can come back us here.
14:43And if he can, great. And if he can't, he'll just get the surgery in six weeks.
14:47Um, so I think probably in the next couple of weeks, he will like either be on the field or under the knife.
14:53And you said that we talked about this a couple of weeks ago.
14:57Cause I floated him as a pickup. And you said that was similar to what they tried coming into the season.
15:02And then the rest and rehab didn't work because week one, it's just been like a, it's just been, it seems like it's been the recovery from hell.
15:10Like he, I mean, this was an issue that it's not like he suffered a specific injury last year.
15:15It's an injury that he's played through for multiple seasons.
15:18He has some sort of specific issue with his heel.
15:20Um, and then he decided to try and address it this off season.
15:24They tried to address it with a PRP shot.
15:26Didn't take, they tried a surgery. It like, I guess didn't work enough because then he got another round of shots after the surgery.
15:33Then like the timeline on returning was off. Like he was supposed to be back for training camp.
15:38It kind of dragged further and further. And then he came out and played on it.
15:42He didn't look that great. He got injured five quarters into his season again.
15:46So like, it's just, I guess it would just really surprise me if this injury and recovery plan that has basically been
15:52unsuccessful and full of setbacks for now. 10 months, like all of a sudden it's like, Oh, well four more weeks of rest.
15:58Now he's perfect. A hundred percent. Like I'd love it.
16:00That'd be great. I'd hope, I hope that's the case for him, but that's just feels like a thin bat.
16:06So setting that him aside, there's still probably Warren in the offense.
16:09The Taylor question is when you're going to address, I guess I could see them training Keenan Allen if they're going to bottom out, but.
16:16You know, I don't know if anybody wants Keenan Allen, right?
16:19So you have Keenan Allen out there. You have Josh Downs, presumably, unless you're going to tell me they're going to trade Josh Downs.
16:25I don't know about him either. The big one is Quentin Nelson.
16:28People have talked about it. And if your offensive line falls apart because you trade from the line, that's an issue.
16:34But I've also heard the defensive players to force Buckner and those things at the defense gets worse.
16:39Like, yeah, it's a problem. But like, why can't the offense still be somewhat interesting in trail scripts?
16:44And like at least competitive if Daniel Jones gets healthier on the Achilles and I don't think Daniel Jones is going anywhere.
16:50And again, if Steichen's kind of coaching for his job, it's all, it's all an interesting conversation.
16:54So anyway, I wanted to give you the floor.
16:57I want to let you talk about it. You know, I already kind of prompted you on the, on the Pierce thing,
17:03but I want to know the 2026, like who are the trade candidates?
17:06How bad can the offense get? I'm hearing people say that this is like a very clear teardown.
17:11That's the big, the big thing. But also like, let's talk about Chris Ballard, how terrible his, his tenure was, or I assume that's where you're thinking.
17:18I mean, I don't think it was like, I don't think he's like incompetent.
17:22In fact, the reason why I wrote this like long piece, and I said this right up front, I was like, you
17:28know, I think Chris Ballard is actually an interesting general manager to talk about because he's not like devoid of ability.
17:33Like if I could write, you know, maybe one day I will, I kind of joked about it.
17:38Like maybe if I get bored for off season content someday, maybe I'll write like a similar retrospective of the Ryan Grigson era.
17:44And it's like, that would be funny. Um, but like, it wouldn't be that interesting.
17:48It would just be like, and this year he drafted a bunch of guys who suck.
17:53And then he signed a bunch of guys who suck.
17:55And then he drafted a bunch of guys who suck.
17:58And then he traded a first for Trent Richardson.
18:01Like that's like kind of, it was just a clown show for five years.
18:04I mean, Ballard did some good things. Like he drafted a lot of good players, particularly offensive line players.
18:09Um, he drafted six different players over the course of his tenure outside of Quentin Nelson.
18:14Um, one of which was in round two and the rest of which were around three or later that all became, I
18:20would say league average or better starters at their position.
18:22Like he was able to consistently find value on the offensive line.
18:26Uh, he was able to consistently find like linebacker and safety value and defensive line value.
18:30And the interior, a lot of it on day two and day three.
18:33Like, I think he's actually a pretty good like talent evaluator in terms of finding starters, uh, in the deeper areas of the draft.
18:40A lot of the like smaller free agent signings he made, especially earlier in his tenure, like legitimately contributed.
18:45His hit rate was pretty high. Um, so I think he's a pretty decent evaluator of like finding guys who are a little bit undervalued, who can play.
18:52What I think like ultimately will go down as the, the failures of his tenure is that he just never, like he
18:58was brought in with Andrew Luck and his job, I think was kind of similar to like what the saints were doing
19:04at a very similar period, which is they had drew breeze, the rest of the roster to atrophied around him.
19:10And everyone always talks about that 2017 saints draft that kind of rejuvenated them and gave them another window.
19:15They didn't win the super bowl, but they could have, um, where they got Camara and they got Hendrickson and they got,
19:21um, I forget who else they all, a lot of more.
19:24Anyway, they got a ton of guys in that draft class Ram check.
19:27And the Coles did kind of a similar thing the very next year in 2018.
19:31That's when they, they had luck coming back off the injury.
19:34It was Ballard second draft. They traded back from three.
19:37Uh, they, you know, it's had, had, had they known luck was going to retire in a year and a half.
19:42They probably draft Josh Allen in that draft. Chris Ballard.
19:45It's been like a pretty open secret that he had Josh Allen ranked as his number one quarterback in that draft.
19:51Um, but they thought they had luck. So they trade back.
19:54They get Quinn Nelson. They get Braden Smith in that draft.
19:57They get, uh, Shaquille Leonard in that draft who is like next to luck.
20:00The second greatest, what if of his 10 years?
20:03Like what if this all pro defensive superstar didn't basically have his career ended after four years cause of back injuries.
20:08Um, they get a bunch of other dudes. And like, I think that he probably would have been a really good GM
20:14and what that original job assignment was, which is just rebuild an atrophied roster around a franchise quarterback.
20:19Luck retires. The job description, like now completely changes.
20:22It's like, you have to figure out the direction for a franchise that's directionless.
20:25And he just never did that. It was like every year he was just trying to kind of be as good as possible in the upcoming year.
20:33Like instead of ever taking a step back, the key point, I think to me is the 2020 off season.
20:38When we, uh, when luck had just retired going into 2019, he'd built up some of the young core, but like we could have.
20:44Take that as a reset year. Instead, we traded a first round pick for DeForest Buckner.
20:49We signed Phillip Rivers. We made the playoffs like kind of what of it, right?
20:53We just end up in this cycle of now we got to get Carson Wentz.
20:57Now we're going to try Matt Ryan and ends up botting out with Anthony Richardson.
21:01And then they rebuilt back up. They tried to go on, on Jones, we ended up where we are now.
21:06So like, you know, to summarize all of that, I would say like the, the cycle of the Chris Ballard era was
21:12a lack of overall foresight about building a sustainable winner.
21:15And then consistently having to take really thin bets like the Wentz trade or the Richardson pick or the sauce trade to
21:21like either maximize like very shaky windows or save his job in like the Richards.
21:25Like a lot of times it was like he was in a difficult position from a job security perspective because he'd made mistakes.
21:31And then Jim Ursae would be like, you have to do this.
21:34And then he would do it. And then that would set the franchise back further.
21:38And so I think overall, my major like issue with him is just a lack of long-term vision.
21:43If you want like the step-by-step, every siding, every pick analysis, you can go find that on my sub stack.
21:48But where do we go from here? The 2026 question?
21:51Yeah, I mean, I think everything's on the table is like the very short answer.
21:55Obviously, everything's on the table when you lose at home to the Titans, your fans boo you off the field.
22:00And you fire your GM. So I think that there's a wide range of where things can go.
22:05But I mean, from a psych in perspective, I think he's in a similar spot to what Mike McDaniel was in last
22:11year, which was they fired the GM right away.
22:14They clearly decided like, okay, the GM is the one who's more at fault for the situation.
22:18And then we'll give the coach the rest of the year to prove himself.
22:22And like, I think that yeah, if Steichen like somehow miraculously turned this thing around, and they like have a winning record,
22:28or they somehow even make the playoffs like yeah, they would probably go into the offseason, keeping him.
22:33And like interviewing GM candidates on the basis of like, we would like you to keep Shane Steichen.
22:38Maybe they don't mandate it, but they would prefer it.
22:40You know, if the season goes poorly, then I think Steichen is going to lose his job.
22:45And I think the most likely scenario is probably that they kind of leave it up to the GM candidates and say
22:51like, we have this coach under contract. If you like him, you can keep him if you want to bring in your
22:57own guy, you can bring in your own guy.
22:59And we're just gonna we're just gonna hire the best GM candidate in a vacuum kind of regardless of what they want to do with Shane Steichen.
23:06And I mean, I like Shane Steichen. But I think if there's some merit to that, like I don't like one of
23:12my one of the early things that I did not like that the Colts did is that they forced Ballard to accept
23:18a coach that wasn't his in the first place.
23:21They kept Chuck Pagano for Ballard's first year. And then we like drafted a safety in the first round who fit Chuck
23:26Pagano scheme fired him the year later and he didn't fit scheme anymore.
23:30So like, I think that there's reasons to not force your GM to retain a head coach that they don't actually like.
23:36So I, I could kind of go either way.
23:38In terms of the roster players, like the the obvious moves are Buckner and then the other defensive tackle Grover Stewart.
23:44They're both older. They're both expiring contracts. They both have value.
23:47So I think they should be gone for sure.
23:49And I suspect they will be the most interesting name.
23:52You mentioned him. It's Quentin Nelson. 30 years old.
23:54He has an expiring contract at the end of this year.
23:57I think a lot of it is up to Quentin Nelson.
24:00Like if he like, I mean, I assume that the owner would go to Quentin Nelson and be like, what are your thoughts on resigning here?
24:07Like, do you want to? And if the answer to that is no, then we better move him because that would be
24:13a disaster if we just lose him for nothing.
24:16Um, when he's a guy that, you know, we just saw Cam Juergens go for like a round two pick and Quentin
24:21Nelson's arguably the best interior lineman of his generation.
24:24Like he would at least, I think, fetch two day two picks.
24:27And who knows? Maybe a team would be desperate enough to offer or one.
24:31Um, I definitely think that that's probably the most interesting domino to fall.
24:34Personally, I hope he's moved. Like we need to recoup draft capital and he's 30 years old.
24:39And I don't know when the next time the Colts are going to be a seriously competitive team and what he's like.
24:45My guess is if he wants to resign, the Colts would resign him because I think they would just like him to
24:51be like a Colt for life and potentially make the Hall of Fame and go into the rafters and all that sentimental stuff.
24:57But I, you know, I would like to see him moved.
25:00The rest of the O-line is all younger. Like the oldest, like Bernard Ryman's 29, but he's under contract for several more years.
25:06And all the other Colts offensive linemen are on their rookie contracts.
25:09So I think that they're all going to stay.
25:12Downs is a little bit interesting. The Athletic put out a trade board.
25:15And I think it's like the Colts have five of the top 17 names or something right now.
25:20And so Downs is interesting. He's 25 years old.
25:22Obviously has not lived up to what our expectations was this season.
25:26He's still clearly a good player, but he's also on an expiring deal.
25:29He's in the fourth year of his rookie contract.
25:32They didn't extend him this offseason. My guess is that they will keep him and they will figure out a contract this offseason.
25:38But, you know, if a team wanted to come calling, that would be of note.
25:42I don't think he's a great fit for the 49ers because they like their receivers to block so much and he's so tiny.
25:48But, you know, that's a team that really needs a wide receiver.
25:51And it has like a lot of question marks long term because their most reliable receiver this year has been Evans, who's old and hurt.
25:58So, you know, who knows? He's not a good fit for the Chiefs, but they love that type of receiver.
26:03They would have another, like too small wide receiver would be fantastic.
26:07But no, I mean, Downs, the wide receivers have value on the open market.
26:10Downs would clearly fetch, even though he's not great, he would clearly fetch some type of draft capital return, potentially even like a day three.
26:17Excuse me. I was gonna say round three, late day two pick.
26:20But yeah, I would think a high day three pick at minimum, like around four or something.
26:25I mean, maybe it's around two. I don't know what year.
26:28I would really hope he'd get it. I mean, if he couldn't fetch a day two pick, I would be horrified if
26:34they traded him for a day three pick. I would lose my mind.
26:37The only reason would be that the acquiring team would need to quickly extend him and also be on the hook for
26:43quite a bit of money in that extension. So, yeah.
26:46But you don't think he would get a round two pick, right?
26:49I think round three is right. Well, I think probably he'd go for round three, which is why I think they'd probably keep him.
26:55I actually would move him for a round two pick if you got that.
26:59So, that's... No, you don't think they would... You don't think they would get that offer, I was saying.
27:04Do you? Right. That's what I'm saying. It's like, I guess I'm saying it in the opposite way, which is that like,
27:10what I would need to trade him if I was GM of the Colts is a round two pick, which means I don't think that they'll get it.
27:18Because like, I don't think anyone likes Josh Downs more than me.
27:21So, if that's what I would take to sell, then no one's gonna offer it.
27:25You know, so like, I think round three pick, I think is kind of the break-even point there.
27:30The one thing I would point out is that because he plays wide receiver, like, I think a team could...
27:35If you give up a round three pick for Josh Downs, you acquire him, and then you let him go in free
27:41agency, like, he's gonna probably fetch you at least a round four comp pick, if not a round three comp pick.
27:47Because, I mean, some teams, like, the wide receiver market's wild.
27:50It is wild, but it's wild for guys that block, to your point.
27:53I do think... But Wondale Robinson got like $18 million a year this year.
27:57Yeah, that's fair. He had 140 targets both the last two years, though.
28:00I mean, Wondale Robinson's track record is better than people realize.
28:03I think... 140 targets two years running is a lot.
28:06Man, that's better than Downs. Yeah, I would imagine that Josh Downs, his contract...
28:10Is in the same range. ...with Seed Wondale Robinson's contract.
28:13I mean, like, J... Yeah, I mean, like, Jaden Reed is another guy that got, like, who's kind of similar to Josh
28:18Downs, and he didn't even make it to the open market.
28:21He got extended for, I think, 16 per... I suspect if he went to the open market, he actually gets more than that.
28:28Well, not now, obviously. But, like, my point on Wondale is...
28:31I'm glad for him he took the security, but had he gone to the open market healthy...
28:35My point on Wondale is he's not a great representation of the market, because I think people, especially in fantasy, are like,
28:41he's tiny and he's not even that good. And, like, I think in the NFL circles, it's like, you have 140 targets
28:47two years in a row, and you have 90-plus catches two years in a row.
28:51And agents can promote that stuff. And, yeah, 90 receptions?
28:54Teams are like, yeah, this guy's a lock for 90 receptions.
28:57We're going to pay him. You know, like, that...
28:59I guarantee that got a few million added to his contract.
29:02Just the coming off two strong years of production is helpful.
29:05We're just talking about Alec Pierce. Guy's coming off two great years of deep efficiency, and he wasn't even that different of
29:11a player than the first two years. He just hit on more of it.
29:15I mean, he's a good contested catch player, had a lot of contested catches the last couple of years.
29:20They played him a massive deal, but there's a lot more that goes into that and what he does for the scheme and everything.
29:26But I do think that recent production element for Wondale versus Downs is a...
29:30I mean, but, like, Jalen Naylor got $12 million a year over three years.
29:34Yes, yes, yes. I'm not arguing the wide receiver market.
29:36I'm not... Deami Brown and all these guys have gotten certain contracts.
29:40Like, Josh House is way better than those guys.
29:42Anyway, so I think he'll probably stay. I think that the...
29:45Then there's the guys that are, I think, the most interesting and the most interesting domino for fantasy we've been circling is Jonathan Taylor.
29:51Jonathan Taylor is under contract for two more years.
29:54He got extended this offseason. So, I'm guessing... Where I think the Colts would be at on Taylor is this organization is entirely devoid of joy right now.
30:01Fans were, like, you know, chanting Fire Ballard at the game in the second half.
30:05Jonathan Taylor, like, you know, as much as, like, Nelson and Buckner are incredible players and are probably just as impactful, if not more, than Taylor.
30:12Like, Taylor is the guy who gets the ball in his hands 25 times a week.
30:17And so he is, like, the most joy-producing element of this franchise over the last era.
30:21He's the guy that, like, you get to truly watch in a way that you can't really watch.
30:26Like, defensive linemen and offensive linemen. I think unless they are blown away, the Colts would just not want to, like, trade
30:32away the only thing on this team that gives any Colts fan, like, a reason to turn on the game or buy a ticket.
30:38And so, I think, like, because he's under contract for two more years, because they're probably going into, you know, some new
30:44quarterback at some point soon and they'd want to have a running game set up because he's a franchise icon who I'm
30:50sure they will want to put, like, in the ring of honor and all that stuff.
30:54Like, I think he would be available in the sense of if a team just decided to offer you something crazy.
31:00Like, if the Broncos called up the Colts and they were like, look, J.K.
31:04Dobbins is washed. Jonah Coleman's cool and all, but, you know, we're not relying on a rookie and R.J.
31:09Harvey's limited. We'll give you our first-round pick for Jonathan Taylor.
31:12Like, it would be malpracticed to not say yes to that.
31:15Totally. Vikings. And I'm sure, yeah, if the Vikings, if they were like, this is our Super Bowl window, you know.
31:20We're 5-0. We're 5-0. You know, we're playing the Vikings this week.
31:24Maybe Jonathan Adela goes off for 150 yards. The Vikings go, man, that guy would sure change things.
31:28You know. See it all the time. Yeah, right?
31:31Like, maybe they're like, man, that 28 on the Colts.
31:33Like, he could really play. You know, you were 28 on the Vikings.
31:37He could pose for photos of Adrian Peterson. Who knows?
31:40Anyways, maybe they offer a first. Like, I think if we got something like that, then, yeah, he's gone and he better be.
31:46But, like, I don't know. Do I think this team will trade Taylor for, like, a third and a fifth?
31:51Like, even a second? I guess I'd have a hard time seeing that.
31:55I think also because they're going to be trying to lure in a GM candidate.
31:59Like, I feel like what I would do if I was ownership is, like, yeah, if you get an offer that is
32:05just so obviously you need to accept this for anyone who's under contract long term, you take it.
32:09You know? But, like, otherwise, you trade the guys who are clearly not going to be on the team next year.
32:15That's Buckner. That's Stewart. And then that would be Nelson if he says he doesn't want to extend with you.
32:21And otherwise, you look at guys like Downs and Taylor and, like, Sauce Gardner and whoever else.
32:25And you just let the new GM decide, right?
32:27You're like, here, like, you can keep these players and try to retool faster.
32:31If you want to trade these players, you can trade these players.
32:34But, you know, here is all of our assets.
32:37You decide what to do with them. That's my guess.
32:40So what odds would I put out that Jonathan Taylor gets traded?
32:43I don't know. I'll say, like, I'll say, like, 10%, 15%.
32:46Okay. Yeah, it's good news. I think it's very unlikely, but it's definitely not impossible.
32:50I said good news there. I meant that's good intel.
32:52It's good info because I was thinking it was higher, but I trust your read on this.
32:57I had been asked about selling Taylor Lowe in fantasy, and I had said, well, if he gets traded, it actually could really benefit his value.
33:04In fact, I would argue it probably would. I know it's not easy, but stepping into a new team as a running back, especially one acquired like that.
33:12I mean, look at what's done for Kenneth Walker with the Chiefs.
33:15I mean, obviously, he had the whole offseason to get into a new offense, but I think Jonathan Taylor can still clearly
33:21play on film and on all that stuff. I don't think you want him on the Colts for, like, what happened at the end of last season.
33:28He was scoring as well as Christian McCaffrey, and he was basically the RB1.
33:32And then you go to a team with no passing game in Phillip Rivers and bottoming out, and he's suddenly unable to
33:38find the space and hit on the big runs.
33:40You send him to Minnesota. You send him to Denver.
33:43You send him to, I think, Chicago's a team that low-key could acquire a running back.
33:47They seem to be still a little bit on – they paid DeAndre Swift, but a little bit unsure on him.
33:53He's been a little bit banged up. They went to a lot of Roshon Johnson for hard up the middle running after
33:59they were doing that a lot with Manungai. Manungai's a guy they really like, and he'll come back from that injury.
34:04So maybe Chicago's not a real answer there, but possibly a team that, like, Ben Johnson's like, look, I just want a
34:10massive difference maker, and I don't feel like we actually have that.
34:13He seems to think he can run the ball with anybody.
34:16I mean, Roshon Johnson just had 80 yards, and the guy looked like a corpse a couple weeks ago.
34:21Jonathan Taylor on the Bears. I mean, this is where I'm at with the Colts.
34:25Like, I don't – like, I care about the franchise long-term, but, like, I'm not under any illusions that any of these
34:31guys that I've loved watching the last six years are going to win a championship with the Colts.
34:36So, like, I want what's best for them. I want to watch them on good teams.
34:40Like, I want all these guys to get traded.
34:43I want the Forrest Buckner to go back on San Francisco, and I want to be able to watch him in a
34:49playoff game and, like, make big plays, and people get to, like, comment on how good he's been the last while.
34:54He's been toiling in mediocrity. I want Jonathan Taylor to be on the Bears, like, just, like, piling up 150-yard games with Ben Johnson.
35:01Like, that's – like, I love – 150, that's light work, dude.
35:04This era drives me crazy. But, like, Taylor and Nelson and Buckner are, like, all-time beloved people for me.
35:09I want what's best for them. What's best for them is not this sad, rotting team.
35:14I want them elsewhere. Like, go be free. I love that.
35:16If you love someone, let them go. Yeah. Jonathan Taylor on the Bears is purely fanfic, but can you imagine if that happened?
35:23It made me so happy. Like, God, come on.
35:25He would run for – he would destroy everyone else's value because they would run for – he would run for 2,000
35:31yards just in the rest of the season. They would never call a pass play.
35:35Why would you? They would never call a pass play, and they would win every game.
35:39It would be amazing. He'd be the new Walter Payton in Chicago.
35:43God, that would be sick. The new Gale Sayers.
35:45Why don't – why can't that happen? Like, that would be so fun.
35:48Come on, Bears. That's my fanfic this week, dude.
35:51That's what – I wrote about it in Signals, I think.
35:54Or I talked about it. God, that would be sick.
35:57I think I mentioned it. I was on the couch with Sigmund Blum yesterday, and I think I mentioned it there.
36:02I don't know. I was talking about it a little bit.
36:05But Jonathan Taylor in the Ben Johnson offense, again, with that more, like, downhill running style that he's not wanted to do
36:11with Swift, and he's done with Mononga, and he's wanted to go to with Roshan Johnson.
36:15But if you have Jonathan Taylor doing that, it would blow my mind.
36:19But so to circle back to – so they trade Buckner, and they trade the other defense tackle whose name I don't even remember.
36:25Yeah. Grover Stewart. Grover Stewart. That's right. Then their defense gets worse.
36:28But you're putting Taylor's trade at 10%. You think Downs is an interesting one.
36:32I mean, Quentin Nelson is one you would like to see traded, but it sounds like you think they may not because
36:38they may give Steichen a real chance to prove that he's the coach.
36:42And that this – if they get a new quarterback in next year, maybe they can retool the offense quick enough with
36:48a lot of the current option to be competitive in improving division, but not with a Super Bowl.
36:52Nelson is really hard for me to guess on because I think it's up to him more than anyone else.
36:58And, like, I mean, the reporter asked him, like, do you want to be here long term?
37:02Do you want to sign an extension here? And he said, like, yeah, I love it here.
37:07I met my wife here. Like, I'd love to be here.
37:10Like, if that's his answer behind the scenes, then I think that the trade of him is substantially under 50%.
37:15But, like, it's also possible that that's what he says, you know, in front of the cameras.
37:20And then behind the scenes, he has a different perspective.
37:22DeForest Buckner made his perspective known in front of the cameras.
37:25And so I think he will be on the way out.
37:28And, like, he has a right to his perspective.
37:31This team stinks. So I don't begrudge him at all.
37:33I mean, basically – I didn't hear what he said.
37:36What did he say? He basically said something – I can't remember the exact words, but it was basically just I'm so
37:42sick and tired of the same song and dance every single year was, like, basically what he said.
37:47And, I mean, like, and his face said that, like, basically he was just, like, this place is a shit show.
37:53And I can't believe I'm about to retire in, like, two years.
37:56And this is where I am with my life.
37:58Like, get me out of here. It was, like, not what he said out loud, but that was, like, what his face
38:04said as he, like, just looked exasperated and despondent and depressed.
38:07Well, that's not great for Shane Steichen. I mean, that's rough.
38:10Yeah. I mean, like, it's just – yeah, it was rough.
38:13And I feel bad for him, man. He's, like, 32.
38:16He was coming off of, like, this neck injury that I didn't think he was going to play this year.
38:21And, like, he's been the best player on the team again.
38:24It's just, like – it'd be nice if he wasn't, like, the best player on this defense for seven years straight as
38:30he turns 32 coming off a neck injury. So, I – my fanfic for him is he gets to go back to
38:36San Francisco and finish his career with the Super Bowl ring.
38:39I want what's best for you, Buck. Amazing. Love that.
38:41Yeah. Great discussion. The thing about the Taylor trade, we named a couple of teams, but one of the things that has
38:47been interesting, and as I was thinking about the different trade options – who was the other running back that I'm – Sorry.
38:54He was just asked. I just saw this six minutes ago.
38:57Someone just asked Buckner. They were, like, in light of your, like, comments after the game, like, do you still want to be on the Colts this season?
39:04He said, right now I'm focused on the Vikings.
39:06Oh, that's a good answer. Holy cow, that says a lot without saying it.
39:10The other running back that is a trade candidate right now – He didn't say yes.
39:15He didn't say that. He didn't. But he got as close as you can without getting the headline of saying, I want
39:20off this team and having to get deactivated. It was fantastic.
39:23Saquon Barkley – I was going to say rumors.
39:26Crack Rock, I believe, is where the rumors were coming from.
39:29Anyone who doesn't know the name Crack Rock, he's a high-stakes player.
39:32That's his pseudonym on Twitter. I don't think he actually does crack, but I can't say for sure.
39:37I'm pretty confident he does it. Like, Robert Mays listens to this show and he's going to be like, who's Crack Rock?
39:43Yeah. He – anyway, Crack Rock had a comment that Saquon Barkley may get traded and they may hold him out this
39:49week to see if a trade comes in. Like, hold him out for another week as a result of that.
39:54There was already the comment that he may get traded, but that he may not play this week.
39:59I don't know. We'll find that out, obviously, along the way.
40:02But essentially it was that they would hold him out specifically because they're waiting to see if a trade comes in or whatever.
40:08So he's the other one on the trade market.
40:10The reason I brought up Barkley when you're talking about Taylor as far as these trades are concerned is when you go
40:16around the league and you look at the teams that would be in position to acquire a running back, one of the
40:22things we've talked about a lot schematically since the start of the show in the offseason is how defenses have done the
40:28– taking away the explosives in the pass game, have done the deep shell coverages and all that stuff, and how that's
40:34created more space around the line of scrimmage. We've discussed it a ton with the Chiefs.
40:38The Chiefs are the best example this year. You get Ken Walker.
40:42He's had room to run because of how defenses play them.
40:45And then as a result, Patrick Mahomes has had some more one-on-ones downfield and some of those things.
40:49Now all of his receivers have gotten hurt, but he was hitting Tyquan Thornton, and he's even been able to find Xavier
40:55Worthy some production these last couple of weeks. Jason, those things – the current meta defensively of the foundational element of taking
41:01away explosive passes and then working back to the line of scrimmage when – like that's what I've argued.
41:06This league's an evolution, and it changed in the last half decade, and it's not going back because everyone knows that passing
41:12is more – like everyone argued for years, offenses need to pass more, and then defenses were like, wait, we should defend the pass more.
41:19All the rules are getting easier for routes. We can't hold.
41:22We can't do any of that stuff. Anyway, I'm not going to go into the whole meta shift, but the point is
41:28it used to be when we used to talk about running backs don't matter for years and years and years, still an
41:34era where defenses tried really hard to stop the run, and it did mean that running backs had a hard time differentiating.
41:40And as we shift into this new meta, the argument is elite running backs are now being able to show their differentiating
41:45traits more because they're having some more space and defenses aren't keying on stopping them, and now they have some more space and ability to do that.
41:53And because of that, this is what the Chiefs needed to do.
41:56They needed to find a running back. The best offenses all have one.
41:59So the only team we named really the only teams, you go league wide, the teams that are in position to be
42:05competitive and have winning records in those things. The Bills have James Cook.
42:09The Chiefs have Ken Walker. The Ravens have Derek Henry.
42:12The Steelers are tied with them at the top of the division.
42:15They have Jalen Warren. The Browns, I'm not, they're the most fraudulent 4-2 team of all time.
42:19The Jaguars have Basial Tootin, obviously. The Eagles right up on the Browns this week was the best.
42:24That's as good as anything I've read all year from anyone.
42:27Just incredible stuff. I appreciate it. Really, maybe laugh out loud like multiple times.
42:31They drive me insane. The Vikings, the Packers are getting...
42:34My favorite movie as a kid is Angels in the Outfield.
42:37I watched it like 130 times. So yeah, for anyone who hasn't read it, the idea was the Browns are the opposite
42:42of the Angels in the Outfield situation. There's some kind of Disney movie magic going on here.
42:47There are teams, score on them early, take a lead, and just forget how to play.
42:51The Ravens drove down the field easily and got 10 points on their first two drives.
42:56And they just didn't do anything. And it's not like the Browns started doing anything.
43:00The Browns had no yardage in this game through three quarters.
43:03And then they were still in it. And then the Ravens missed a field goal.
43:07And then Derek Henry fumbled. They gave him a short field.
43:10And the Browns' only touchdown was a 30-yard field.
43:12And then the Browns win at the end. And it's like every single week has been this.
43:17It's been this every... It's like does nobody watch the games with the Browns?
43:20It's like put them away. Some team needs to put them away.
43:24I know the Ravens had a backup quarterback, but it's every...
43:27I was like are they poisoning them somehow? Are these teams getting worse over time?
43:31I don't know what's going on. There's some voodoo happening with the Browns.
43:34But it's the opposite of Angels in the Outfield where it's like yeah, the good guys and all the positive.
43:39It's like no, they employed Deshaun Watson. And then good things happen because they have the worst human being in the world as a quarterback.
43:46Anyway, that was me paraphrasing. But I'm glad you enjoyed that.
43:49But I'm going through the teams. Detroit Lions have Gibbs.
43:52The Packers have Jacobs returning. The Panthers are leading the South.
43:55They have Chuba Hubbard going very well. The Niners are 6-0.
43:58They have Christian McCaffrey obviously. The Seahawks are a good team that have a lot of confusion or running back.
44:03But they have a lot of names and they have guys returning.
44:06I mean, even worse teams. You can go down this list.
44:09The Falcons obviously have Bijan in place. The Texans are maybe a team, you could argue.
44:14But anyway, there are not a ton of teams.
44:16A lot of the good teams have their running back in place.
44:19There are not a ton of teams. Maybe the Giants.
44:22The Giants have so much uncertainty. But there's not a lot of landing spots for running back.
44:26So we'll see. I do think Saquon probably winds up getting traded to one of those teams we were discussing.
44:32Or one of the other ones I just mentioned.
44:34But it is an interesting market. Because the teams that would be out there to acquire a running back as that final piece, by and large have them.
44:42A lot of them do have them in place.
44:44That's part of why their offenses are succeeding. And doing as well as they are.
44:48I think Saquon is more likely to be traded of the two, of him and Taylor.
44:52Just largely because I think that the cost to acquire would be a little bit lower because Saquon's older.
44:58And I just think that the Eagles are like a more ruthless operation.
45:01Like Moe Alleycox was a UDFA signed in Chris Ballard's first draft class.
45:05And Chris Ballard got 10 drafts. And Moe Alleycox outlived the Chris Ballard tenure.
45:08As a third string tight end for almost the entirety of it.
45:12Like we are the most like friends and family sentimental organization in the league.
45:15Like it's just like Taylor will be moved to someone over pays.
45:19What I would be stunned by, absolutely stunned by, is if Jonathan Taylor moves and the reaction isn't like, Wow, I can't
45:24believe what the Colts just got for Jonathan Taylor.
45:27Like someone is going to I think have to give $0.130 on the dollar.
45:31Whereas the Eagles are not sentimental at all. The Eagles are like the most ruthless organization of the league.
45:36If they decide that what's in the best interest of their team is moving Saquon Barkley, then we'll move Saquon Barkley.
45:41They don't like they're just going to. And he's only been on the team for decisions at the time.
45:46Yeah. They acquired him in 2024. He's only been on the team for two and a half years.
45:51Not even two and a half. Anything else on the Colts to wrap up our short long view upside down short view?
45:57We're going to go to that. I got a Mo Ali Cox mentioned because it would have been a shame if I
46:03got through a whole Colts segment somehow. And I didn't mention Mo Ali Cox.
46:07It's yeah, this is this is maybe the most fun status.
46:10We still have. We still have three players remaining on the Colts from Chris Ballard's original draft class.
46:15Two of which were UDFAs. Grover Stewart is one.
46:17It's about to get traded. And then the other two are Mo Ali Cox and punter Rigoberto Sanchez.
46:22And in Chris Ballard's last game, Mo Ali Cox scores a touchdown.
46:25And Rigoberto Sanchez like suffered a debilitating injury on a block punt touchdown that basically ended his tenure.
46:30That was a good place to end our Colts discussion.
46:33The long view. Will these rookies be redraft league winners?
46:35We're going to talk about their profiles. In order to not talk about each of the.
46:40I mean, this is a major inflection point on the season.
46:43It feels like for a lot of these rookies talked about a little bit at the beginning.
46:47There's a bunch of interesting ones. Omar Cooper comes back from IR and immediately looks like a big part of their offense.
46:53Jacoby Lane comes back and me. It looks like a big part of their offense.
46:57Jeremy Bernard has a 12 target game and looks like the biggest part of his respective offense.
47:02Antonio Williams, number one, is out for the year.
47:04Tears his patellar tendon. Terry McLaurin. You have Stephon Diggs looking like a possession receiver, but a very limited one at this
47:10stage for anyone who hasn't watched a ton of the commanders.
47:13Diggs is getting targets. There's limitations there. I think he's going to continue to get targets, but he's not going to be
47:19like an elite number one, at least in my mind.
47:22And then Traylon Burks is a limited player as well.
47:24There's the runway is there for Antonio Williams to be the number one.
47:28I think he may be the most intriguing. We'll go through those guys.
47:31But in order to not spend the whole conversation on them because you're hearing about them on every show this week and
47:37talk about the other guys, we're going to frame this in terms of my four quarters draft philosophy structure.
47:42A quick breakdown on what that is. I know we've talked about it before, but basically it's not equal quarter length.
47:48But you think about it in terms of rounds of a normal draft and it's where there's like inflection points in and tear breaks in fantasy drafts.
47:55And so quarter one is typically and I do it as like a.
47:59A moving target, but it's typically like the pre running back dead zone where you have elite running backs.
48:04You also have elite receivers and any tight end that goes up there is an elite tight end as well.
48:09Brock Bowers and Tray McBride were the two that were drafted.
48:12It's usually by like the middle of round three or in some homings in the middle of round four.
48:17Think about it as the first three rounds. Basically, really, it's round one round two.
48:21It starts to fade a little bit as you get into round three.
48:25But you're talking about the best players in fantasy, the league winners.
48:28But you have to pay league winner prices when you draft them.
48:31But I talk about this concept also in terms of where you're getting value.
48:35So part of the reason of breaking down into these quarters is when you get into quarter two, what you're looking for.
48:41And this is what I've written about since I talked about this is quarter two draft picks that can produce as quarter one players.
48:47You're looking for the breakouts that produce like and then get drafted in that range the next year.
48:52That's what we talk about with dead zone backs.
48:55You usually want to look at young guys that can break out in a way that gets them drafted in quarter one
49:00in the first few rounds the next season. Patial Tootin may be the best example of that that we're undergoing right now.
49:06There's receivers every year. They get drafted in round four, round five, round eight sometimes that then next season go up there.
49:12And a lot of them are young guys. We just saw it.
49:15Well, I mean, I'm thinking back to when Garrett Wilson was a rookie the next year.
49:20He was going up there when Brian Thomas is a rookie the next year.
49:24He was going up there. Ted Rowe McMillan didn't quite get up into quarter one this year, but certainly will be in quarter one.
49:30I would assume next year depends, I guess, a little bit on Jalen Coker and how this offense progresses.
49:35But long-term elite young profiles that hit tend to then get drafted in quarter one the following season.
49:40And so in terms of like an individual redraft season, when you're drafting guys in quarter two, as I refer to it,
49:46which is typically the rest of the single digit rounds, you get to about round nine, sometimes round 10.
49:51I argued this year that there was receivers available into round 10 and 11 in some formats that were quarter two receivers.
49:57One of those was Matthew Golden, was one of the main poster boys I was arguing, was a quarter two guy that
50:03you could pay almost quarter three prices on sometimes.
50:05And he's been producing like a quarter one guy, leads the NFL in air yards, even though he dropped two touchdowns last week.
50:11Been a little bit maddening in terms of the actual realization of the production, but he's been great.
50:16He's been fantastic. You look at weekly ranks, he's being ranked as a top ten wide receiver.
50:21However, the volume is there. The production is there.
50:23Hopefully Josh Jacobs doesn't change that offense too much because both him and Christian Watson look like top ten wide receivers.
50:29It's fantastic. Quarter three is when you start thinking about the wide receiver window was kind of closed.
50:34You're in the dead zone running back range. You're in those handcuff, high upside running backs that are, if things break their
50:40way, they can be league winners from that respect.
50:42They're some of the most fun young running backs.
50:44I'm failing to think of great examples this year, Jacob, but Chuba Hubbard was going back there, but of like young ones.
50:50Corey Krosky Merritt was going in that range. Who have hit from that range?
50:54I'm trying to, yeah, I mean, that's been a terrible range for all positions.
50:58Like it's like Chuba and Matthew Golden. And then like, it looked like Michael Wilson, but that's not quite as great the last one.
51:04And he was going a little higher. He's probably more of a quarter two guy in my mind.
51:09But that's also the range where in a lot of leagues you're hitting your quarterbacks.
51:13You're hitting tight end depth a lot of the time if you didn't take an early tight end.
51:18Like one of the things I talked about is like quarter two.
51:21You're not necessarily looking at tight ends. I guess, but I think that's that party's kind of ending soon now with Jordan
51:27Mason back, but great early season piece for sure.
51:30And so quarter three, it's not even that many rounds.
51:32I typically talk about it as a shorter length of time because a lot of windows close, a lot of positional windows
51:38close and you get, you get into pure flyers.
51:41And so you have to make some tough decisions in quarter three when you're drafting about round nine to round 12 or 13 round 13 plus.
51:48You're into pure flyers basically in any fantasy draft round 14 plus that's quarter four.
51:52So we have four quarters round quarter. One is the elites.
51:55They're the top, you know, 30 players, two and a half rounds.
51:58And you're looking for guys that are the actual quarter one producers.
52:01Quarter two is like everything through round eight, round nine.
52:04You're looking at guys that are meaningful starters in fantasy.
52:06They support the superstars in your roster and in your build.
52:09They give you, you know, small wins, but maybe not big wins to lean on another concept that we've discussed over the years.
52:15Quarter three is more like upside plays. And one of the things I've argued, you know, in quarter two, you still want
52:21to be taking a lot of risk. You want to be swinging for the fences because you need X amount of quarter
52:27one producers is what decides the fantasy. Like we always talk about this league winners win leagues.
52:32You need like probably four or five league winners on your roster and then you win your fantasy league.
52:37And so you would love them to be the guys that you draft at the top, but you'd also love them to
52:43be some of the quarter two guys producing like quarter one guys.
52:46You can also get quarter three guys producing like quarter one guys.
52:49That's part of the point of quarter three is like you still want to be looking for upside.
52:54But in one of the things with quarter three, it's like they're they're also like flex plays.
52:59They're startable. They're potentially providing you depth to quarter two depth issues.
53:02If you took a lot of big swings in quarter two and you missed and you were trying to hit the big
53:08ceilings and you missed, hopefully your quarter three picks are providing some support to your roster, some depth.
53:13So they're they're flex plays with some upside, etc.
53:15And then quarter four is like peer flyers, right?
53:18It's peer flyers. You might be willing to have them on your roster.
53:21You might not even roster them at all. That's going to be the framework that we are going to talk through as we talk about these players.
53:28We're going to talk about the players. We're going to talk about their profiles and all those things.
53:33But we're going to essentially try to move quickly because we want to talk about 20 guys in an hour or so.
53:39That's not going to happen. Probably more like 90 minutes and we may not get to 20 guys, but we do have
53:45a little bit of a hard out this week as we've talked about.
53:48So, Jacob, quarter one producers, superstars, quarter two, starter level, quarter three, flex level, bench depth, bi-week fill-ins with some upside.
53:54These are all rookies. They're all going to have upside.
53:57Quarter four, peer flyers. That's our framework. Let's start with the big week six ones.
54:01Omar Cooper steps into the slot role that Isaiah Williams had been playing.
54:04Comes off IR. He had barely played at all in week one, but he had had a big play in the very limited time he had played.
54:12He has a monster game. He gets a touchdown called back because Tim Patrick is blocking downfield because he doesn't know what to do other than block.
54:19It made no sense. One of the most bizarre plays of the week.
54:22Gino Smith was still five yards behind the line of scrimmage.
54:25He had extended. He wasn't scrambling. And Tim Patrick's like, ah, all-time signals week for you.
54:30I mean, you're like, like reading signals is always, is always a treat.
54:33But like this, this is some of your, you've been doing this for a long time.
54:37This week was, might've been one of your five best.
54:40I appreciate that. That's nice to hear. It is year 10.
54:43I'm getting along on the team. This is like, this is going, this, this week would go on the Mount Rushmore of, of stealing signals weeks.
54:50It was the, the Brown stuff, the Tim Patrick blocking commentary.
54:53Xavier Worthy sprinting out of bounds. Like this had a lot.
54:56What was he doing? This was good stuff. What was he doing?
54:59Why was he accelerating at about, everyone's like, oh, there was under 10 seconds.
55:03He was coaching out of bounds. Yeah. And then he immediately dropped the ball.
55:07He was like, hell yeah. And like, everyone's like, there was 110 seconds.
55:10He was coached to do it. You don't know ball on Twitter.
55:13And it's like, dude, you have to have like, I do, I know enough ball to know you have to have some spatial awareness.
55:20There's have some feel. There's no one around you.
55:22This is part of like what being a football player is.
55:25It's like your coach to do something. And it's like the coach.
55:28I mean, we talked about this last week, right?
55:31With Dan Quinn and like Gene Daniels. Like, what, what can you say?
55:34What can't you say? It's like, you, you can't possibly explain to a football player everything.
55:39Like, you don't know what the play is going to be.
55:42You can't give them explicit instructions. Like go to bounds at this number.
55:45Don't go to bounds at that number. Like keep running.
55:48Like you, you, you're like, you tell the players like, Hey, if once you have the ball, go out of bounds.
55:53And it's like, that obviously means your play has to end out of bounds, but that doesn't mean like as soon as
55:59you cast the ball, you just put in full speed and then bounce.
56:03And then the whole point about the clock and all of that stuff, there's seven seconds still.
56:07They have to kick at like an awkward time because they're out of timeouts.
56:11They didn't even do the throwaway. So then they had to kick off and keep Mitchell as a 27 yard return.
56:17Like you may, I mean, obviously you're probably not going to give a, give up a kick return for a TD, but
56:23you're trying to kick the field goal on the last play of the half.
56:26He makes it, but it's a 50 yarder that could have been a 40 yarder.
56:30He could easily got 10 more yards and taken up a few more seconds.
56:34And people are like, wow, he still made the field goal.
56:37They didn't have any time. Oh, you don't know anything.
56:40Did you watch the game? The idiots, because Harrison Bucker missed a 52 yarder that they needed.
56:44They were up 13 points in the early fourth quarter.
56:47Kickers can miss 50 to 52 yard field goals.
56:50There's, there's an element here of Xavier worthy has to be more.
56:53I'm as to the point about, like I was saying, you were like a fake Juwan Johnson.
56:57Like I'm as inclined to support Xavier worthy as anyone, because I look like an idiot.
57:02I've talked about him for so many years and he, he makes me look bad.
57:06And like, anyway, I'm, I'm doing that thing too, where I'm like, I I'm biased towards him.
57:10And probably I'm biased against him at this point because it's so exhausting telling people to root for Xavier worthy, but like
57:16150% has to have more awareness of the situation.
57:19You can't leave your kicker a 50 yard field goal when you don't need to go make it shorter, go make it easier.
57:25Like I said, he misses a kick from two yards longer in the fourth quarter in a 13 point game.
57:30I think they needed that kick before half. They were only winning by 13.
57:34At that point, they made it 16. Like they needed to put away the charges.
57:38They were not putting them away. The charges hung around.
57:41Fortunately, the charges are absolutely horrible and the charges never did anything to even compete coming back.
57:45But the chiefs, they had a goal line stand at the goal line.
57:49They missed this field goal. You know, multiple opportunity.
57:51Mahomes threw a pick in the end zone. Multiple drives that got down inside the five didn't finish with points at all.
57:57It was not a, it was not a very efficient operation from the chiefs in terms of maximizing points.
58:02And they still, I mean, they still easily won because the chargers are not competitive, but anyway, Xavier worthy was not the point.
58:08I appreciate that you enjoyed. I appreciate the enjoyed signals.
58:11I was, I was talking about the Tim Patrick play.
58:14It waved away. Omar Cooper's potential first career touchdown.
58:16He was wide open. He did a great job to find space on an extended play.
58:20Gino Smith found him touchdown. Later, he still got the real first touchdown on a bomb.
58:25A lot of people have said, look, Christian Gonzalez being on the field, shutting down.
58:29Garrett Wilson is a big part of this. There are people that don't love the Omar Cooper prospect profile.
58:34He was not going crazy high for a first round pick.
58:37In fact, he was going as late as any first round pick wide receiver.
58:40Like since before rookies started getting expensive, like it was wild.
58:43You could take him in the last round in high stakes.
58:46And he looked in week one, like a hit.
58:49And it was like, oh my God, I wish I had Omar Cooper in the last round of every draft.
58:54Then he goes on IR. Now he looks like a hit immediately coming back.
58:58We've gotten whatever it is, 30 routes or something.
59:00And it's like a seven yards per out run.
59:03I mean, it's absurd. Obviously it's a very, very small sample, but he's, he's hitting.
59:07He looks like a player. It's a, it's a 4.6 yards per out run on 29 routes to put an exact number on that.
59:1316.6 yards per target. Pretty good. Pretty good numbers.
59:16Omar Cooper, is he going to produce at that kind of a level the rest of the year?
59:21Is he going to be sort of a quarter two producer, quarter three?
59:24Where do you land with him? I'm feeling optimistic and I'm feeling fun.
59:27So I'll, I'll say quarter two, especially cause I, I mean, there's probably going to be spoiler alert.
59:32There's going to be more Q3s and Q4s on this list than, than Q1s and Q2s.
59:37So I'll, I'll say Q2 for Cooper. I bid aggressively on him wherever I had cash left to spend.
59:42We, uh, our, our main event team with Lawrence, which we did three main event drafts.
59:46Two are not in great shape. That one's in phenomenal shape.
59:49Uh, and we went aggressive on Cooper there. I landed on a couple of solo teams as well.
59:54Um, I think in, on our ship chasing teams, we went pretty aggressive after Cooper.
59:58Yeah. I mean, I, the sample is so small, like you said, and there are definitely reasons why the ceiling could be
60:04limited or, or why the floor could be really volatile.
60:06Like the jets preferred way to play the game would be to just run Braylon Allen like 42 times.
60:12And then once breeze comes back, run them 21 times each.
60:15And, you know, when they're controlling games, that's going to be kind of how they prefer to play.
60:19Gino has been really up and down. He's had some games where he looks like he was at the peak of his Seattle era.
60:26He had other games where he looks completely incompetent.
60:28Um, and so I definitely expect there to be some volatility.
60:31Like I also, based on how they've treated Kenny and Sadiq, would anyone be that shocked if this week coming off this
60:37game, Omar Cooper's like 62% routes and 80 Mitchell is playing 98% of the routes, you know, and maybe even Tim Patrick
60:43is rotating, uh, uh, Omar Cooper off the field every now and again, like, but it's a slot role element here, right?
60:49Or I do think he's, he's just good. I think it's going to be him in the slot and 80 on the outside.
60:55And I think that, you know, the, the two wide receiver set stuff might hurt Cooper.
60:59Cause I still think he probably comes off the field to receiver sets, even if we don't want him to right away,
61:05hopefully over the course of the season, that changes.
61:08Um, but they also aren't running that many two wide receiver sets.
61:11You know, that's part of the reason why we're having the Kenyan Sadiq issues is that even when they didn't have Cooper
61:17and they didn't have AD and they didn't even have Isaiah Williams, they were still being stubborn about kind of running their
61:23personnel groups and not playing full-time 12 to get Sadiq out there next to Mason Taylor.
61:27So I think overall, a lot of optimism for Cooper and like the best case I would make for him is, you
61:33know, these are the first five quarters that we've gotten to play from a first round pick.
61:38You know, he wasn't like a super stud, like level first round pick on the surface.
61:42And obviously he went very late in the first round, but I thought he had a, a profile that to me was
61:48pretty high upside at the very least because his per route production throughout his college career was very strong.
61:53It's just that it took up until the later seasons of his career for him to actually be able to translate that up to full routes.
62:00Like he just didn't play that much early in his college career.
62:03Um, but like to me, that strikes me as a profile that like has floor issues, but has a very high ceiling
62:09because, okay, well, what if, you know, for the first couple of years just didn't come together for him for whatever reason,
62:15maybe his coaches made the wrong choices. I don't know.
62:18And then all of a sudden, by the time we got to see him in this full-time role, he really flourished.
62:23And then we get to see him in the NFL.
62:26He's flourished so far. And he's also a guy who like graded well and was perceived well by the film community as
62:32a separator who also brings a lot of ball and hand skills.
62:35And that's a really fun combination of traits that you have in a player.
62:39So it would not surprise me at all if this is a guy that we view as the type of talent that
62:45we want to draft in like round three, round four, round five for years and years to come.
62:50And like, maybe we were just a little bit too low on him.
62:53I'd also suggest that like his price never really made sense this summer, especially in a basketball context, like there was a
62:59ton of thought around him in August because like he didn't have a ton of buzz in preseason.
63:04And like for one preseason game, he was playing as the wide receiver four, I guess.
63:08And so it felt like people kind of forgot that this is a round one pick that people should be really excited about.
63:14Like he was viewed kind of in a lower tier, but like kind of now that we've seen him look really impressive.
63:20Yeah, I mean, this could just be like a guy that we draft as a top 24, top 36 wide receiver for the next five years.
63:27And it might just be starting now. So I'll say tier two player.
63:31And I think in my opinion, I think he's like, like maybe he won't go down as the best waiver out of the season.
63:37But I think at the time of waivers being open, he is the most intriguing waiver ad so far this year to me.
63:43That's how I feel too. A little counter on the production stuff.
63:46Siegel has references to me before. He had a 207 four touchdown, 207 yard four touchdown game against Indiana State in a 73, 73 to zero win.
63:54His only other hundred yard game last year was against Michigan State, who they beat by 25.
63:58Larry Bird, bro. You think that's a bad performance?
64:01Indiana State shout out. Uh, Michigan State went one and eight in the big 10 last year.
64:05He had a lot of pretty poor games as well.
64:08Two yards against UCLA, no catches in the conference championship against Ohio State.
64:11They played all the way to the national championship.
64:14He had 71 yards in the national title game against Miami, but he had 45 in a TD on three catches in
64:20the quarterfinal, 17 in a TD on three catches in the semifinal against Alabama and Oregon.
64:24So as he's playing these like really good teams and his postseason opportunity, you know, games, he isn't even hitting like 50 yards.
64:30He had a bunch of touchdowns. Um, and, and that was helpful.
64:33He scored almost every week. It seemed like having said that, like Indiana was playing from ahead in every game.
64:39They went undefeated. There's a lot of other elements to that.
64:42They had other decent players. Elijah Surratt. Um, a lot of people pointed out was more productive than Cooper, you know, especially against some of these better teams.
64:49That said, the jets liked him. The NFL liked him.
64:52A lot of evaluators behind the scenes are looking at a lot of different things.
64:56They thought he was a first round pick. There was a lot of discussion that Cooper might go to the jets in
65:02the middle of round one where they ended up taking Sadiq.
65:05And then they traded back into round one to make sure to get him.
65:09They clearly felt like he was a follower at that point to make the move to trade back in and get him.
65:15So like, yeah, some concerns about the profile. You talked about some of the stuff early in the career as well, that
65:21there was a low floor, but to me, we're talking about, uh, we're talking about rookie uncertainty.
65:25I understand the jets are a bad offense. The fact that Sadiq is not really playing is, is meaningful here for me
65:31that they're playing Mason Taylor as a two way guy.
65:34You talked about the routes, Isaiah Williams. So Cooper only ran 4% routes in week one.
65:38He got hurt. Williams ran 77% in that game from there.
65:41He goes 81%, 89%, 94%, 83%. That's in, I mean, you're going over 80% every week as a slot receiver that 80 Mitchell played in week two.
65:48He's he missed from week three on, but. And that's when it got up to 89 and 94% of those things, but
65:54he was at 81% Williams in week two. He was at 77 in week one.
65:58Even is a very strong number for a slot receiver.
66:01You part of the issue with the slot receivers is sometimes they can get down to like the 65% or 60% to be up around 80%.
66:08It's very solid at week five. He was at 83% with Tim Patrick at 94% fully ingrained now into the 80 Mitchell role.
66:14Last week, Omar Cooper returned to a 79% roles.
66:16You put your role. Yeah. Yeah. Very much. And that's, and that's, that's what I'm getting at is Omar Cooper at 79% in his first game.
66:23I don't really share your concerns about, or I don't know that there were major concerns.
66:28You said it kind of could happen, but 80 Mitchell's return impacting Cooper.
66:31I don't think it's going to impact his route rate very much based on those numbers and how much Isaiah Williams was playing.
66:37And he's, this is a first round player who's good.
66:40Who's doing good things. Why would they take Omar Cooper?
66:43Why would they limit Omar Cooper when they weren't even limiting Isaiah Williams?
66:46They were not as healthy to be clear, but I just don't think there's a real risk there.
66:51It could come down a little, but I don't think it's going to be a major risk on Cooper's playing time.
66:57And then as far as 80 Mitchell's skill is concerned, that gets overstated.
67:00He's really good at separating. He's not been efficient.
67:03Omar Cooper has shown us in a very small sample, the ball in hand that you talked about check the separation ability
67:09on that extended play that got called back as Tim Patrick decided to block downfield check.
67:13Um, and, and, and other times he's shown some ability to get open and an ability to win downfield on that bomb touchdown.
67:19If you're going to win at every depth and if you're going to win it before and after the catch point in
67:25a 20 something route sample, you're going to show me all of that.
67:28And your first round pick that a team traded back into the first round to select.
67:33If I go back to draft season, I said this to you when we were going through our, our waivers and why I wanted to bet on him.
67:40I'm taking that guy in like round seven. That's a really strong at like minimum.
67:44That's a really strong rookie profile that I want to bet on.
67:47If I knew all of that, that that was going to translate for a rookie first rounder, a late first rounder.
67:53The comparison I made somewhere was it's a little bit like rookie years.
67:57They flowers to me. I'm trying to think of late first round guys as opposed to early first round guys.
68:02Cause it really is kind of different draft capital at that point.
68:05You don't want to compare them to like a Malik neighbors or something like, yeah, I mean, yeah, he was getting drafted
68:11and redrafted the tooth return and he hit on that, but like he was also a superstar and like immediately a superstar.
68:17And we knew that, but Omar Cooper has a late first round pick.
68:21Maybe it's a little bit like Zay flowers in terms of ball in hand, ability to win at all depths, you know,
68:26up, down, uh, shallow, shallow, deep, et cetera. I don't think he's as good as current version of Zay flowers who was
68:32going nuclear right now, but you can look back at rookie years, a flowers and the development of for rookie flowers.
68:38If Omar Cooper could be that kind of a player early in his career, I mean, even though the jets aren't great,
68:44it's not going to be, you're working off of Garrett Wilson.
68:47One of the other comparisons I made in signals is when you're the clear number two, when you're the, because if he hits, I think he's meaningfully better.
68:54We know that AD Mitchell is not an efficient player.
68:57We know we can get open. We know he's not an efficient player.
69:01And, and Kenyon Sadiq is not being utilized as much as maybe he should be.
69:05He's going to be better than Mason Taylor and all that stuff.
69:08There may be some limitations to his role, but I would think that Omar Cooper, if he hits could be the clear,
69:14like second guy, uh, two other comparisons I made in signals or elsewhere or thought about, or I don't even know if I've made them, whatever.
69:21My brain's been all over the place this week.
69:23Uh, Calvin Ridley's rookie year feels a little bit like when Calvin Ridley hit immediately and he's the same kind of undersized
69:29player, like similar player can win vertical, can do a lot of different things alongside Julio Jones.
69:34Cal really had a great rookie year. Um, and then, um, now I lost the other Calvin really was the second one that came to mind.
69:41The other one was more notable. Oh no, I was going to make, this isn't a young player.
69:45I was going to make the, the Malik neighbors, Isaiah likely point, which is like when you're the clear number two, when
69:51you're the other go-to guy, you, I understand the point about Christian Gonzalez taking away Garrett Wilson, but Omar Cooper thrived in that spot.
69:58That's good. It's good to be the guy that can thrive in that spot.
70:02Garrett Wilson's going to have his production too, but when he gets taken away a little bit in certain schemes, then you go to Cooper.
70:08We've seen it with AD Mitchell already in this offense that he was the, and Juno Smith's kind of a first read guy.
70:14He was going to Mitchell, but I think Mitchell from an efficiency standpoint and right now from a health standpoint, isn't going
70:20to be reliable enough that like you think about how this plays out.
70:24You think about Omar Cooper as the guy that actually becomes the first to read when the pre-snap read is not to Garrett Wilson.
70:30And so that's kind of, that's how I've described Isaiah likely is you're in a great spot here.
70:35You're the clear number two and you have an elite number one.
70:38Garrett Wilson's not Malik neighbors, but it's the same similar kind of structure where like you're, you're losing some volume to a really star number one.
70:45But if you're the clear number two, if you're that guy, you can work off of that.
70:50That's the Calvin Ridley, Julio Jones rookie year point as well.
70:53So I'm with you, Omar Cooper to me. And the point I was making to you is you don't get a lot
70:59of rookies off the waiver wire that are better than around seven redraft.
71:02If I could go back, I'm not saying, I'm not saying if I was drafting from now, but I guess I kind
71:08of am, but I'm saying like how we value these profiles.
71:11A first round rookie got traded up for, we know he's in a role.
71:15We think he's going to run 80% plus routes and we think he's going to be efficient and good.
71:20It's like McKay Lemon. It's what I thought McKay Lemon was coming in.
71:23I think McKay Lemon's a better prospect. So there's some, there's some discussion there, but I have more certainty right now with
71:29Omar Cooper than you get to have in August that he's good.
71:33I mean, I'm not certain about it, but I have more certainty.
71:36I have more information. So I'm pretty optimistic about Omar Cooper and where he's at.
71:40And I think he was worth the bids. A lot of people didn't seem to go very high on him.
71:45I got him everywhere. I have a lot of exposure.
71:48I was surprised people didn't go so high on him.
71:51I got a, I got a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of leagues right in him and off money.
71:56Cause I tend to be pretty aggressive and usually I think that that is the right strategy.
72:01This, this year it has probably been a better strategy to save your cash.
72:05Um, but yeah, I, I was very aggressive wherever I had the money to get him and I got him pretty much
72:10wherever I had the capacity to make like a major, major bid on him.
72:14I would agree. I was very surprised that people weren't more excited about like a round one rookie who's been nothing but awesome and limited opportunities.
72:21Why wouldn't we be pumped about that? And then, um, we won't talk about competition.
72:25The other guy that I got in like literally every league, I was like, I had a feeling this was going to
72:31happen throughout the day because I, I played so many different FPC leagues with so many different co-managers.
72:36I have leagues few with Lawrence. I have leagues with some of the fancy points guys.
72:40I have leagues with all the ship chasing guys.
72:43I have some solo leagues, um, leagues Ron and Liam.
72:45And like in every single discussion of every conceptual league that I have, like where I wanted to put Travis Hunter in
72:51the pecking order, if it's not where my co-managers wanted to put Travis Hunter in the pecking order.
72:56And so then it became clear to me over the course of the day that like, oh, I'm good.
73:01I'm going to get a lot of Travis Hunter.
73:04I still don't have anything for expectation. I went from not owning a single share of Travis Hunter in the FFPC to
73:10having, um, 57% exposure of Travis Hunter. Well, and then my conversations with you got me on the impression that he was
73:15going to, I'm blaming you for this, that he was going to be more interesting for people than he was.
73:21And I ended up, it was just me. You wanted to put like big bids on him and I had to talk you down to like 50 bucks.
73:28I ended up overbuying him for like 30 to 50 bucks on a lot of leagues too.
73:33I have a ton of exposure to Hunter now too.
73:36And it was money that I didn't want. I didn't need to spend.
73:39Like I bought him down after talking to you, but I was still bidding like 50 bucks everywhere and I got him uncontested.
73:45And then there was, I'm glad my feedback got your bids down, but your feedback got mine up.
73:50Yeah. It worked out better. Yeah. Well, you know, we'll, we'll all be happy when he's, when he's killing it over the second half of the season.
73:57Uh, but, uh, I mean, there was, there were leagues where like, I didn't have any money left.
74:02There was leads where I had like $32 left.
74:05So all I did was just do like a string of $1 bids.
74:08And I was still getting them for $1 and half of those leagues.
74:12So I got them uncontested in some leagues where, yeah, I'm, I'm low on money too, but I, I, the, the, the
74:185k league I do with Leonie and Pat and Pete, I put in the waivers and, um, we hit on Cooper and,
74:23um, I had a contingent bid on, on for Cooper for 300.
74:27I had a contingent bid on Kanata mumfield for a hundred dollars that I should not have had that high.
74:32It was a bad bid and he got, went uncontested.
74:35And then I got Hunter for like 30 bucks.
74:37I was also higher on mumfield than a lot of my co-managers.
74:40I think that was your fault too. But I had mumfield behind Hunter in most of them.
74:45So like, I wish I had swapped the order.
74:47Cause I normally, I don't ever think about swapping my order of bids.
74:51Cause I'm just like, like other managers will level up my exposures for me.
74:55You know, it's like sometimes like, but it's like, since I was never getting outbid on Hunter, cause no one else cared at all.
75:01I just like, I feel like I got like one or two shares of mumfield when I probably wanted to get like six.
75:07Like I actually really like the play there, but I think they're going to trade for a receiver.
75:12I don't know. I think mumfield is a short-term play.
75:15If you need a short-term starter, there's some intrigue, but like I'm kind of, I got a lot of mumfield too.
75:20And I'm kind of, that's the one that I'm actually more mad about.
75:24I think I got Hunter for like 30 bucks in this 5k league, but getting mumfield and Hunter for 130 bucks combined uncontested.
75:30Like I didn't expect that based on some of the conversations.
75:33I thought that we'd get overbid on some of these and with the Cooper $300 bid and we had three drops and
75:39we hit all of like some of the top bids.
75:42We were left to like $27. I spent like 450 bucks or more.
75:45And it's like, whoops, that's not the way you want to navigate your waivers.
75:49Uh, kind of a big miss. Well, we, we got, we got everybody in our league with Lawrence.
75:54We had, we had, we were the big stack.
75:56We went all in and we got, we got our top three guys.
76:00That's right. On that one, we're down to like 40 bucks remaining.
76:03You, I think you want to save at least a little bit more than that when, you know, it's week six.
76:09But anyway, this is a big, this is a big waiver week.
76:12You do want to use your fab early. Like that is, that is definitely a strategic perspective, but yeah, Hunter and Mumfield,
76:18very interesting guys this week as well. We're kind of sticking to the rookies.
76:21We agree. Cooper is more of a quarter two type with some, some potential quarter one.
76:26I mean the jets offense and Garrett Wilson kind of limits you from being like a quarter one true producer, maybe even Sadiq to a lesser extent.
76:33We'll talk about Sadiq in a minute. Um, Antonio Williams is the next really interesting one to discuss Terry McLaurin, torn patellar tendon.
76:39I talked, I kind of gave my take already digs.
76:42I think is limited. I think he's fine, but I think he's a role player at this point.
76:47Antonio Williams has looked awesome. He had an 86 yard touchdown removed for, uh, whatever legal shift or something.
76:52It didn't affect the play in that London game.
76:54That would be making his numbers look way better.
76:57If he had that on the ledger, he's otherwise looked really good.
77:00He's gotten open. He's made plays. He had a nice little stretch at the end of week one before Jane Daniels got
77:06hurt in week two to help set up the, uh, commanders to almost beat the Eagles there in week one.
77:11It seems like he's going to have to play.
77:14It seems like he's going to have to be the ceiling option.
77:17He was less available in some of these FFPC stuff, but to me, he was where available.
77:21Somebody to bid on up there with Cooper. He was, you said we got our top three bids.
77:26It was Cooper and Williams. And then I can't remember the other one.
77:30Tyron Tracy, I think was the other one. Yeah.
77:32So we didn't even have Hunter in our top three or mum fielder.
77:36Any of those guys, we got Cooper, Antonio Williams and Tracy in that one.
77:39I feel much better about those wins in that on that team.
77:43Cooper and Williams to me were the, they're available because Jeremy Bernard's mostly already rostered.
77:47These, these two were, were the really intriguing ones.
77:49I'm going to say for Williams quarter two again, I think it's another, you don't usually get these sort of round seven
77:55ish type of plays, but I, I don't know that I would necessarily take them around seven, but you're talking about a
78:01day two receiver who now is in a very thin wide receiver room with, I think Jane Daniels, Jane Daniels got a lot of flack.
78:08I saw in your writeup, you were like, he's getting a bunch of flack.
78:11He's still producing. I'd take it a step further.
78:14I think the flack is, is misguided. I think there's, I think Troy Aikman's points about him not pushing it downfield were
78:20fair, but to the point that we discussed with the QB school thing with Bo Nix a couple of weeks ago, and
78:26I think the Bo Nix stuff, like it's, it's looked even worse since.
78:29And I think it was a fair criticism and I was probably wrong on that, but I do think there's a reason
78:35that some of these teams are doing this stuff.
78:37There's a success rate element to these drives. If you're making the point, Troy Aikman over and over and over again on
78:43the broadcast that he's, he's turning down the longer developing routes down the field to take quicker throws underneath, but they're like,
78:49while they're driving and scoring touchdowns and getting back in that game, they were a fourth down throw to the end zone
78:55away from upsetting an undefeated team on the road when their number one wide receiver got injured in the first half.
79:01Why are you not spending any time explaining that every time he has a wide open receiver, he's hitting him dead on for yak.
79:07Like every time they did a sprint out to, to Chigo Conquo, he's throwing the football dead on accurate.
79:12Jayden Daniels is a good thrower of the football when he has time in the pocket.
79:17I understand he bailed out of some clean pockets at times.
79:20He does do some of that stuff. I'm not saying he's perfect, but I think there is way too much made of
79:25the limitations or there was in that game and people.
79:28And then like Dan Olovsky had the cryptic tweet of, um, Oh, the Jane Daniels film, my God, or whatever.
79:33Like, yeah, he bails out of some clean pockets.
79:36He turned down some downfield stuff, but for successful underneath throws that kept them on, on, on, um, on whatever in front of the sticks or whatever.
79:43And for the long, the downfield stuff to develop, if you're constantly big play hunting, it's a style of play.
79:49You will eventually take a sack when your offensive line is not that great.
79:52You may also eventually throw into some coverage because defenses are baiting in different ways.
79:56You sent me a really funny and really interesting, um, clip about Travis Hunter baiting, uh, CJ Stroud with a fake stumble
80:02in the end zone on that interception in that London game.
80:05We're seeing a lot of these downfield, uh, throwers, quarterbacks that are, that are efficient, still mixing in some picks.
80:11We saw, uh, the best game was the Cowboys Packers, uh, deck through.
80:14Well, I thought for most of that game, but there's a couple plays where it's like the defenses is understanding what he's
80:20trying to do with the vertical passing. And, and he throws two picks and he throws another one that could have been
80:26a pick, but he gets bailed out of, uh, roughing the passer on the flip side.
80:30Jordan loves same thing. Vertical attacking offense throws one pick and throws another one that gets picked, but they don't get the second foot down.
80:37There could have been five interceptions that game. And I'd argue both of those offenses are willing to take those interceptions as
80:43a trade-off so they can continue to throw vertically and aggressively the ways that they are.
80:47But part of what defenses are doing when you do that constant vertical and aggressive downfield passing is they're able to get one here and there.
80:54They're able to get a pick. You do have a little bit of that trade-off.
80:58We've seen it with, I mean, like Justin Herbert's not a good example, but he's thrown a lot of bad picks.
81:04Um, we saw it in the Texans-Jeggs game. We saw the, the Stroud pick.
81:08We saw Lawrence throw a pick in the end zone.
81:10It gets a little more condensed in the, in the red zone.
81:13We've seen Mahomes throw some picks. We've seen Purdy throw.
81:16I don't know if he's thrown as many this year.
81:19Purdy's playing incredible, but at the end of last year, Purdy was playing great and his interception rate was very high despite
81:25it, but he was still playing very well. And it was obviously worthwhile.
81:28His EPA and everything was still very strong with the interceptions.
81:31The point is that's part of the modern NFL.
81:34If you want to be aggressive and throw downfield, you're going to, you're going to take on risk.
81:38So when some of these guys are turning those down, down those throws in situations where they're still putting together successful drives,
81:44I do think it's an, it's an, it's an old school football guy extension point that I think is not right.
81:50I think I'm like, I, I, I, you know, I don't like disagreeing with Troy Aikman.
81:54I don't like disagreeing with JTO Sullivan, but I think they are missing an element of Jayden Daniels is still leading successful drives on the road.
82:01And you're, and you're criticizing that he's not getting bigger plays.
82:04And I think if he's big play hunting with a bad offensive line, he's bringing in risk that he, the way that
82:10he was running the offense was, was taking out.
82:13And the risk is also that you get to, you take a big sack, which is a major debilitating thing.
82:18When defenses are trying to take away explosive plays, you get into a second along or third along, you're done in a
82:24lot of these series playing with an elbow that could explode at any, any moment.
82:28That's another huge part of it. Even additional risk for him.
82:31Yeah. So anyway, I think the team, it's not a matter of just being selfish.
82:35It's, it's, it's also a team aspect of if he does take a sack and he re injures the elbow in a
82:41way that causes him to miss substantial time. The team is way worse once again for, for being without his presence.
82:46So I, I completely agree with you. I, I just, I, just before I kick it to you, I just want to,
82:52I want to square one thought because I was saying with Dak and love, you need to push vertically.
82:57And I think you need to push vertically. And I love that Lawrence is doing it.
83:02And I love that Stroud's doing it. And I love the, you have to do it.
83:06I'm not saying that you want to be underneath.
83:08I am saying that you don't push vertically in every situation at the expense of like seeing what's in front of you
83:14with some of the well-structured drives that some of these teams, like I just, I thought the criticism of Daniels was unfair
83:20in that, in that particular spot when they're having successful drive.
83:23They also had a successful first half drive that they got stopped at the goal line, you know, on a fourth and
83:29gold down in, in the red zone. I understand that there were some throws available down the field, but to your point
83:35as well, like if he takes some hits, it's not good for the offense either.
83:39They built an offense that succeeded and was good and, and, and well-structured.
83:43And when he does have clean open throws, he makes them like that was the part of it that I'm a little,
83:48like, I understand the quarterback skill stuff. I don't know as well as Aikman and O'Sullivan.
83:53Those guys have forgotten more than I've ever known.
83:55And so the points of like checking, like taking down the, or taking the check down and, and, and bypassing the, the, the vertical routes.
84:02And some of those, like Aikman was shown in the end zone camera and where like Daniels is throwing underneath and as
84:08he's throwing, there's a guy coming free on a dig over the middle.
84:11And you're like, that guy's wide open. Like you would want him to be throwing some of those.
84:16I understand it, but I do think you can also give Daniels the, the, um, and then, then it became a whole
84:22criticism of like his film was bad in that game.
84:25And the point is like, what were the, like, I know process over results, but like, what were the results in that game?
84:31Because I know we can rip those throws down the field.
84:34He shows them when he needs to, but anytime like the, the chick plays and anytime they were doing the underneath stuff,
84:40there was a, there was catching run. There was yak ability that the timing is there when, when he does throw from
84:46clean pockets, he puts the ball where it needs to be.
84:49This is a good passer of the football. And I think like that gets missed that gets missed with some of the
84:55like playmaking aspects when they get criticized. This is not a playmaking quarterback.
84:58That doesn't know how to play quarterback. He's a very accurate and very good passer of the football.
85:03I'm like, put some respect on Jane Daniels name for my opinion anyway, but sorry, I'll let you chime in now.
85:08Yeah, no, I just, I mean, I agree and I, I'll, I'll, I'll be sure, but I, yeah, I talked about a
85:14more, like I was doing a really like rapid fire piece this week.
85:18And so I really only talked about the production, but I've, I've written about Daniels plenty the summer and into the season, especially when he got hurt.
85:25And there was a lot of negative discourse around his NFL future.
85:28And I've, I've made an impassioned case that I think he is like a very good real life quarterback.
85:33There's a segment of people that were out on Daniels as a prospect and that like continue to doubt him and did
85:39not give him, in my opinion, enough credit for his rookie season.
85:43I thought it was really bizarre, kind of the way that he was talked about coming off that rookie season.
85:48I mean, he basically dragged this roster to the NFC championship game.
85:51And a lot of people did not like include him in like top 10 quarterback polls and stuff after that season.
85:57I, I thought he was treated quite differently than most quarterbacks who got similar results.
86:01Um, and then like the way he's been talked about at times this year of like, oh, like is he their franchise quarterback?
86:07Do they need to move on from it? It's, it's, it's, I mean, who knows, but like, it's just so completely divorced
86:13from what I view Jane Daniels as. Um, and it reminds me, I mean, I think Daniels is way better than this
86:19guy, but it reminds me a lot of the way that dart has been discussed at times in his career too, where
86:25he was a prospect that I thought was really underrated that people said, no, like his, you know, his production's fake because
86:31it comes in the offense and he's just hitting a lot of these free release throws or whatever.
86:36He's not making the NFL plays. And then like, he actually is like in reasonably effective in the NFL, despite like no weapons and an injured offensive line.
86:43And it was like the same discourse again. It was like, no, well, it's not like, it's not, it's like people will
86:49talk about like unethical production or whatever, as though there's like an ethic to, to quarterbacking.
86:53Um, and I, I, it's just, I don't know.
86:56It's not for me. I just, to me, like there's something to it, I suppose, but I feel like there is a
87:02large segment of NFL commentators or football commentators who like tend to just give out a lot of style points about like
87:08how you manufacture your production in a way that I think is like to some degree, there might be something to a lot of degree.
87:14There might be something to it in the context of like trying to separate quarterback play from scheme or trying to view
87:20like, okay, which quarterbacks are producing in a way that could be, um, effective kind of like, regardless of game script.
87:26Like are, are there some quarterbacks who are just able to front run and play with a lead and with favorable box
87:32counts and with like a heavy run rate versus who's able to succeed in a drop back scenario?
87:37All that stuff I think has some, has some merit to it.
87:40But like, Gene Daniels just threw 40 pass attempts in this game.
87:43They were behind the entire time. You know, like I, whether or not this is like ethical quarterbacking to people, he had
87:49league average, uh, EPA was 16th in, in EPA per drop back this week, which is average.
87:53That's not amazing, but it's average. And, uh, in the context of some of the weapons and losing his number one wide
87:59receiver early in the game, you lose your number one vertical receiver.
88:03That's going to be a problem. The entire game is like, I think actually pretty fair.
88:07And then, uh, he was number one among all quarterbacks this week and completion percentage over expectation.
88:11So it's not like he's just like only completion hunting.
88:14He's like accurately delivering the ball, you know, unethically, um, but like effectively.
88:18And then, you know, he threw for 300 yards on, on, on 40 pass attempts, two touchdowns, no picks.
88:23Like, I, I just like, I just feel like this guy is like very consistently leads the league in like highly efficient,
88:29successful games, or I guess not successful, they didn't win, but like efficient games that are like average or sometimes well above
88:35average in like results based metrics that then people like just discount because they don't like the way that he accumulates them.
88:40Like, I, I don't have a problem. I mean, was, was Tom Brady unethical?
88:44Like, I mean, I don't know a lot of check downs.
88:47It's, it's really bizarre to me how certain quarterbacks get tagged with this.
88:51I think it's wrong with Jaden Daniels, but, um, and I think it's like very different than like the Bo Nix game
88:57the other week where like their offense barely scored any points and like they didn't move the ball very effectively.
89:02I mean, I know they only score 17 points in this game, but they moved the ball a lot more effectively than that.
89:08They had a, a fourth down and a lot of people criticized Jaden Daniels for throwing it away on a fourth down.
89:14That's a fair criticism. Um, he didn't, he didn't like make that play competitive enough.
89:18And then they, they obviously have the drive at the end of the game where they need six points.
89:23And so they turned the ball over and downs once, and then they, um, don't get in the end zone the second time.
89:29Like I, that I can anyways, but my, my point is the same as yours, which is that I, I don't, I view Jaden Daniels very positively.
89:37I think he gets a ton of flack. I think it's a lot of people, frankly, who didn't like him enough as
89:43a prospect who are kind of just stuck on take lock around him or just don't like the aesthetics of how he
89:48plays the game in ways that I don't fully understand.
89:51I don't think they match with his results. I don't think someone who's holding back production.
89:55If you're looking at an Antonio Williams, um, and before we go to that, Antonio Williams.
90:00Yeah. Let's go to, let's go to Williams in a sec.
90:03But, um, I, I just wanted to, cause I said a lot of stuff too.
90:07I agree with a lot of what you said, but a lot of what you said also helped me want to articulate
90:13kind of the point I was making, which the next point is a great one.
90:17I was trying to delineate there. Like I was wrong on Nick's.
90:20Like if you want to do the unethical quarterbacking thing, then make it about Bo Nix.
90:24Like that's fine. He's not actually throwing the ball vertically.
90:27Jaden Daniels has shown us an ability to attack vertically to your point about Jackson dart.
90:31That's another guy that has been able to throw vertically when needed.
90:34So when they're doing something different than that, it's not to me, it's not unethical.
90:38It's like, they're just doing something different for a variety of reasons.
90:42And then the other point I want to make is like, I don't think Jane Daniels was perfect in this game.
90:47The point I was being critical of other people is that there's other people like Dorlovsky tweet was like acting like it was a horrible game on film.
90:55And I'm like, this guy completed 75% of his passes.
90:57I know they were underneath. I know you're talking about like the EPA wasn't great and stuff on a per play basis,
91:03but he was, yeah, the success rate was high enough that like when you're doing it that way, the per play basis,
91:09it's not going to be high because you're not big game hunting for the big plays, but the success rate has to be good enough to justify it.
91:17And it was. And the part of that, that I think is so interesting is you're playing the five and Oh San
91:23Francisco 49ers on the road and you have a terrible defense as well.
91:26They're getting beat. They, they, they, they turn the ball over, um, uh, in the, in the red zone at the 13
91:32on that first drive and Daniels threw the ball away on a fourth down and everyone criticizes that whatever that it's 20 to three at half.
91:39They punt on the first drive of the second half and the Niners get a field goal.
91:44It's now 23 to three, six minutes in the third quarter, Jane Daniels leads, whatever it is, a very long drive, uh, an 11 play drive.
91:51And everyone was like, Oh, you should be taking more big game hunting.
91:54Part of what that did was, I mean, I understand this whole point of like, you know, momentum, whatever, blah, blah, blah.
92:00Well, it kept the, it kept Brock party on the sideline for a long time.
92:04Birdie comes, pretty comes back and they get a three and out parties previous two drives, by the way, 14 and 11 plays.
92:10They had had one three and out in their first six drives.
92:14They get a three and out. I think some of that has to do with the fact that the commanders were able
92:19to put together a five minute, 42nd drive. The commanders get the ball back.
92:23They have another 10 play 80 yard drive. There's a little bit more on a, on a yard per play basis on that one.
92:30However, um, and they get another touchdown. They make it 23 to 17 with about 10 minutes left.
92:34They get another three and out after that. Now I'm not saying just because they kept the ball for so long, that's
92:40why the three and outs happened or that this was optimal or whatever.
92:44When you're down 23 to three, you do probably want to try to score.
92:48But my point is like, I don't think when you're playing the Niners who, and the other part of this is people
92:54have been saying the Niners defense has been playing very effectively.
92:56So that's part of why I think, you know, the big game, like the lack of big gang hunting, like you're, you're
93:02putting yourself in a tough spot against a good defense, they were able to put together long drives, keep the night, like
93:08not get into a haymaker battle with the Niners.
93:11Whose offense has been awesome and has been winning all of those keep the Niners offense actually off the field effectively.
93:16And they get the ball back. Now, again, I'm not trying to give Daniel's credit for the three and outs.
93:22Some of that is on the defense, et cetera.
93:24But I actually think like the way to win this game was to shorten it and maximize your possessions.
93:29And they were effectively doing that. And as I'm watching the game, I'm like, this is actually awesome.
93:34From a game management perspective, they're doing some good stuff.
93:37They're playing, they're the underdogs. They're doing the, like, um, the, the NCAA, like March Madness thing where they're like, we're actually
93:43running down the shot clock, but then shooting a bunch of threes.
93:46And we're like, we're trying game as a one team.
93:49If they don't call a hold on Jeremy McNichols, they would have taken the lead in this game or they didn't call, you know what I mean?
93:56They didn't call the hold on McNichols. They called the hold that took away a 31 yard touchdown run.
94:01It would have put them up 24, 23. Probably Brock Purdy leads them back for a game winning circle, but they would
94:07have been leading in the fourth quarter of this game against a Superbowl favorite.
94:11Like that's right. It was all the rest of performance on the road when they were down 23 to three, when this
94:17really started happening, that's really when Aikman was going off on Daniels about taking the checkdowns.
94:21I'm like, this is the best that offense has looked all day.
94:24They're putting together these long drives. They're getting the ball back.
94:27They're continuing to stack touchdown drives when they need them.
94:30They're shortening the game. They're shortening the amount of time their defense is on the field.
94:34And Brock Purdy is able to extend the lead against them.
94:37And they get to a position where they have a fourth and three in the red zone at the two minute warning.
94:43Daniels ends up throwing to the end zone and completed trailing Burks.
94:46You can criticize a lot of things. You can criticize that particular throw, that it was a little high.
94:51You can say that he didn't need to throw that far to the end zone.
94:55He had a shorter throw on the play. You talked about the counter of arguably Jeremy Nichols' touchdown run.
95:00That ended up happening with about four minutes left.
95:03Regardless of all of that stuff, my point is there's been a little bit of an overwhelming negativity around Jane Daniels in
95:09a week where, again, to your point, he's playing with an injured elbow, still kind of getting used to the limitations of that.
95:15And his number one receiver tore his patellar. And it's a receiving core that's otherwise not very talented.
95:20He's operating with Traylon Burks, a rookie in Antonio Williams, and Stephon Diggs, who's quite old, and Chigakonkwo, and getting by.
95:25You want to talk about ethical quarterbacking with no offensive line.
95:28Their top run game is Rashad White. Zero run game.
95:31No offensive line. I thought it was one of the most competitive games from a quarterback of the whole season.
95:36And everyone's out here saying he's not being competitive.
95:39He's bailing out of pockets, and he's throwing too short.
95:41It's like, man, why are you not giving me any credit for the plays where he's doing, like you said to Tom Brady, the checkdowns and stuff.
95:49I don't want to get into a racial thing.
95:51I, honest to God, think there was a little bit of like, specifically with the, because I've named specific names.
95:56But when a black quarterback does this, we're not going to give him credit for it?
96:01When he checks down a bunch and when he is taking small gains?
96:04We talk about game managers and smart white quarterbacks all the time.
96:08I'm sorry. Like, it frustrated me to watch. I'm sitting there watching, like, what I think is good quarterback play, given all the circumstances with very little help.
96:15And they're like, we're just constantly saying he should be trying to do more than he's doing when he's actually managing this game very well.
96:22And the commanders are getting back in this game.
96:24The story of that game was how well the commanders got back into it.
96:28It was completely incongruent with what I was watching, in my opinion.
96:31I thought Jaden Daniels played very competitively, very good.
96:34I don't know. Sorry. That's a long view take.
96:36But I'm with you on this tangent. It has been, the way that Jaden Daniels has been talked about over the last
96:42couple of weeks, like, if people want to criticize the situational awareness on, like, the one-fourth down play this week or the
96:48play in overtime last week, that's fair game. I feel like that and people's priors and other factors have colored an overall
96:54perception of Jaden Daniels as just playing bad quarterback on a down-to-down basis that is completely divorced from what I'm watching.
96:59And I'm glad that it's divorced from what you're watching as well, because I'm on the same page with that.
97:05Yeah, it's divorced. And it's, again, bringing in the racial thing is, I understand that that gets people really turned up.
97:10I'm just saying it because I do think the specific way he was playing for some other quarterbacks, you brought up the Tom Brady thing.
97:17It does get praised. And that's what's weird to me.
97:20I don't say that's, I'm not saying that's the racial part.
97:23I think the reason, the disconnect here was not, I don't think, a racial one.
97:27I think the disconnect was what you're saying, which is there's this idea of like, what is ethical quarterbacking and the specific style of play?
97:33And if I don't see it played a very specific way, I have a, what, what I think the mistake was here
97:39was not seeing what you're seeing, which is that these offenses are moving the ball or this particular offense is moving the
97:45ball and finding success, even the way that they're playing.
97:48And you're, you're, you're, you're pigeonholing a point that you think is important.
97:51That is not actually fitting. What's that? What's what's what's happening in the moment that you're like, you're watching the game was,
97:57was the, it's, it's demanding quarterback be played a very specific type of way.
98:01Like you said, which is not strictly a racial point.
98:04I just want to be clear about that. And I don't think that's actually, I mean, like you could say there are
98:10some undertones, but I don't think that's actually probably what the undertones were.
98:13I think it's far more about a specific style of quarterbacking that, that we're looking for.
98:18We're looking for a specific pocket passer who doesn't bail out of clean pockets, steps up, throws vertically, does the, you know,
98:23when there's an option downfield and I, and I've criticized quarterbacks for years for missing opportunities vertically.
98:28And there were opportunities in this game that Aikman highlighted well, that Daniels would have liked to have back.
98:33I'm sure when Daniels looks at it on film, he would admit it.
98:37And his coaches would admit it. I don't think everything that he did was perfect in this game at all.
98:42The point is he was up against it. And, and I think competing and playing well, and they were from like a
98:48game theory standpoint, they are navigating the second half very well.
98:51And so it just, the, it was, it was a, um, a narrative fit to a specific expectation of quarterbacking play that I didn't think was fair.
98:58It would have been fair on bone X. It would have been fair on a lot of people that have played that way.
99:04I don't think it was fair at all in this situation for Jane Daniels ended up coming up short, but if they
99:10score there late, they actually have a real chance.
99:13You're right. Like maybe, maybe pretty leads a field goal coming back, but like they have a real chance to steal this
99:19game at the end and not really leave a lot of time for the Niners.
99:23Like that's what you're trying to do as an underdog on the road.
99:26I thought it was expertly done, um, in terms of at least the result, not necessarily the, um, the pro like the
99:32process on a down to down basis, which I was, um, trying to also give some, some understanding to you.
99:37But anyway, that was, that was a little bit of a heated and a little bit of a, you know, a, a,
99:43a, a powered, um, you know, charged, a charged tangent.
99:46Um, we should get back to the, to the actual game.
99:49We gotta go rapid fire here. Cause I know.
99:51Yeah. We don't have a lot of time. I haven't let you do a lot of talking about Antonio Williams.
99:57You've been trying to get to it. What do you got?
100:00I don't have to add too much more. I liked Antonio Williams as a prospect.
100:04I didn't like think he was a superstar, but I thought he was, um, especially like pre draft discourse.
100:09I thought he was an underrated prospect. What I liked about Williams was he came in and produced right away.
100:14He didn't ever have a ton of peak production at Clemson, but he was able to establish himself right away.
100:20Um, I also just think he has like pretty clear NFL skills.
100:23Like he's a guy that can win and separate in the intermediate areas of the field.
100:27Um, I don't know if he is like, you know, the long-term wide receiver one for the Washington commanders.
100:32I'm skeptical of the ceiling, but I think he is an NFL player.
100:36Um, I think he's going to be a contributor.
100:38I think he has a chance to be the wide receiver one potentially by default this year.
100:43I mean, one of his high-end comps coming out from a lot of people, uh, not just myself was Lab McConkie and
100:49like another kind of like a guy who's like, maybe he's not really like a wide receiver one, but like he can
100:54function that way in a pinch and obviously been really unfortunate.
100:57He's dealt with so many injuries this year, but you think of Lab McConkie's rookie season, you know, he was able to
101:03really step it up, especially over the second half of the season as the best target owner on, on a team.
101:09And like, maybe that's an upside case for Antonio Williams over the second case of the season.
101:14Jaden Reed had a really strong second half of his rookie season.
101:17He had some similar notes in his prospect profile as well to Williams.
101:20So I'm excited about this. I prefer Cooper. I think we've seen a little bit more flashes of that really high end upside from Cooper.
101:27I'd like the prospect profile a little bit more on the high end from Cooper, but I'll say back end of tier
101:33two or quarter two, um, for Antonio Williams. Like, I think he is a guy that would not surprise me if we're
101:39able to start him like as a wide receiver three wide receiver four flex type, um, over most of the rest of the season.
101:45And like, we'll see how he progresses. Maybe there's even more upside than that, especially coming out of the bi-week you're on mute.
101:51I love all those notes. I would just say, I think there's a little bit of a wider band for him than
101:57anyone else because of the fact that he could just be the number one by the end of the season.
102:03Terry McLaurin's out for the year. I don't think it's digs.
102:06Excuse me. I don't think it's digs at all.
102:08And I think, um, there's a possibility that Antonio Williams just emerges late in a way that like makes him a guy
102:14who was just like racking up target. Sure. I mean, you think about the, the, the, the rookie hammers, the late season
102:20rookie hammers of the past that the guys like Dom and Ross St.
102:23Brown's and stuff, where they just got a ton of volume.
102:26That's what this could become. If Jane Daniels is a very good player, um, last two notes on Jane deals.
102:32I'm going to be really quick. Uh, he did make a lot of mistakes in this game.
102:36I just want to re and re emphasize that.
102:39One of the ones was he took hits again when he was scrambling, especially early.
102:43It took a big hit. And I think like those are terrible plays and there's, there's things he can definitely, he definitely deserves criticism on.
102:49And then the second thing is I was, it was doing the, the, like the comparison of this play style.
102:55One of the arc of the counter arguments would have been for like, when I start talking about like some of the
103:01racial stuff that some of the white guys aren't bailing out of pockets and stuff, they're taking checkdowns.
103:06They're going through the progressions, taking checkdowns. Part of that, like my argument is like part of, again, maybe it's not a racial thing.
103:12It's more just an athleticism thing or whatever you want to say, but like, part of that is like, it's the, it's
103:18the, like the white guys can't move out of the pocket.
103:21Like they, they're like, a lot of them are just pocket.
103:24They're, they're statuesque. They don't have the athleticism that Jane Daniels does.
103:27He uses that athleticism. Well, he had a hundred rushing yards on two long scrambles for long touchdowns last week.
103:32He uses that athleticism. Well, that is a element that you want him.
103:36Like Josh Allen does it too. Like, so let's not make it a race.
103:40Josh Allen like bails out of pocket. It sometimes extends plays as well as anyone in the league.
103:44And it doesn't, you know, Josh Allen stands in the pocket better than Daniels too.
103:49I think Daniels is a young quarterback that, that is a little bit more skittish than, you know, Josh Allen, Josh Allen
103:54played an, an, an unethical in like massive air quotes game on Monday football against the Rams.
103:59And he did it in a similar circumstance to Jane Daniels, which is they were without their wide receiver one, DJ Moore.
104:05They were, they're missing Josh Palmer too. So they're really undermanned.
104:08Um, and they were against the defense is playing pretty soft.
104:11And there were people, I mean, and in fairness, I think it was Orlovsky actually, it might've been someone else, but he
104:17pointed out a play where he missed all in Kincaid, um, downfield who was open and available.
104:21Um, and so that's obviously consistent, but like for most of that game, Josh Allen kind of just decided it felt like,
104:27I don't know if it was an active decision or like a subconscious decision, but he, he operated on throughout the game, the mode of, yeah.
104:34Okay. Like without DJ Moore in this game with like the Rams corners against my pretty mediocre outside wide receiver talent.
104:40Like what I'm going to do is I'm just going to, I'm going to run a lot when I have the opportunity
104:46to run, I'm going to check it down to the backs and I'm going to, you know, make some plays here and there.
104:52We're going to kind of manufacture offense down the field.
104:55And it worked really, really well. Obviously it worked better for them than it worked for Jane Daniels.
104:59They scored like, what was it? 30, 37 points in a win or something like that.
105:04Uh, and they, uh, they win the game. And I mean, you know, because it's Josh Allen and obviously he's earned more
105:10of the benefit of the doubt that Jay Daniels has, like outside of a couple of notes here or there, most people
105:16praised the way that he played, but it was like, that was an example of one of, am I being the best quarterback in the league?
105:23Like playing a specific style that he felt he needed to, to win that specific game.
105:27And like, maybe not the most sustainable way to play 17 games a year, but I thought it was a completely reasonable way to play and it worked.
105:34And, and I, I don't, I agree with you that I don't think Jay Daniels is given the same grace.
105:40Yeah, no, that's, that's a great point. And he won the game and that's a little bit of a different thing there,
105:46but Jane Daniels did very well in the second half to get them back in a position where they could win the
105:52game when they were down 20 points on the road to an undefeated team.
105:55That's, you know, looks like a super bowl contender.
105:58Jeremy Bernard, 12 targets, 11 catches, 1.8, 8-0 last week.
106:00He has made some plays down the field. Looks like a very good fit for Aaron Rodgers with the ball in hand stuff.
106:07I noticed in your take purge, you talked about how DK Metcalf got a lot of his production late.
106:12Bernard was getting it throughout completely agree. Having said that Gerard or Bernard was getting some late as well.
106:17The, the Steelers were another team that was down, down two scores, throwing a lot as a result, throwing into overtime.
106:22The fact that both he and Metcalf had 12 target games here is I believe no Steeler had had more than six
106:28catches in a game all season until this game.
106:31And then both Metcalf and Bernard did it. It's a little bit of a team level.
106:35Hey, we got into a pass comeback mode. We play an overtime period.
106:39We get extra volume in that overtime period. Bernard catches his touchdown in overtime that elevated his ceiling in this particular game.
106:44I know you were really into him as a prospect.
106:47Everything has worked very favorably for Bernard. Everyone else is out and he looks great.
106:51I mean, he looks awesome. And he's a good fit for, I don't want to like limit what he's done.
106:57He's a good, good fit for what Rogers does.
106:59But also like Rogers has talked about, they've quizzed him and Bernard's been passing it and he's doing all the things he needs to do behind the scenes.
107:07And he's making the plays on the field. He's got great ball in hand.
107:10He looks awesome. He looks awesome. Having said that for me, he's more of a low Q2 guy closer to Q3 in
107:16that there's going to be other guys coming back.
107:19Like I do think Pittman's going to play again this year.
107:22Right. For as far as my understanding, or is that not?
107:25I think so, but he's so freaking washed. Okay.
107:27Roman Wilson is another one that is on IR could come back.
107:30They use the tight ends. They use the running backs.
107:33There are going to have games where they just don't throw a ton, which is part of the point of, they didn't
107:39have a lot of 12 target games. Now Bernard, I understand people are like, Bernard's going to get his around the line
107:45of scrimmage, but we have seen when a guy with sort of a 1.8 ADOT only gets like five catches.
107:50It's not that playable. You really do need to get to like the 10 catches that he got to in this game.
107:5611 catches for it to really like, then it looks awesome because especially like in PPR, you're like, oh man.
108:01But like, I've, I can't, I can't do it.
108:04I can't go into the tangent I was about to go into.
108:07What do you think about Jeremy Bernard? Man, shout out to you for some self-control.
108:11Shout out to us. We're going to hit this hard out no matter what.
108:15That's the point of a hard out. It has to be hard.
108:18Anyways, Jeremy Bernard, I will, I will slightly disagree with you.
108:21I'd rather have Jeremy Bernard the rest of the season than Antonio Williams.
108:24I'll go Cooper one, Bernard two, Williams three. I think they're all Q2 guys for me.
108:29I would say Williams is on like the fringe of Q2, Q3 for me.
108:32I think Bernard would be squarely in Q2. I just think.
108:35I think you're right about that more than you're wrong about it.
108:39Cause I do think the floor is a lot, probably a lot higher, but I think the ceiling is not close, which is why I would take Williams.
108:46He could be the number one. He's got Daniels.
108:49That's fair. I mean, I, I think that the, I mean, I would actually say that as a median outcome, I think Bernardo scores Cooper too.
108:56I think that Cooper's ceiling is higher. Cause I think that the prospect profile is higher that like the, the level of
109:02work is a little bit more well-rounded. I mean, I think Bernard is just such a good fit for what Rogers wants
109:07to do, which is throw a bunch of two yard passes over and over and over again.
109:12And Bernard's really good at that stuff. Like he, he got kind of a, a boring tag as a prospect.
109:17Um, like a lot of people are like, Oh, like professional wide receiver, you know, he'll, he'll come in and he'll help out right away.
109:24But like how high is the ceiling? And I mean, I think a lot of that's fair.
109:29And I'm, I'm kind of seeing a lot of that.
109:31I even wrote in my article, like, you know, between the two, like Cooper's the one I'd be more inclined to buy
109:37high on, especially in dynasty formats, like in terms of a real ceiling.
109:41Um, but I also thought Bernard's ball and hand ability got underplayed in the draft process.
109:45Like this is just not even based on the data or anything, but like I'm a Vols fan and we played Alabama
109:51last, we play Alabama every year on the third Saturday of October.
109:54And like, I remember watching the Tennessee Alabama game last year, not knowing who Jeremy Bernard was.
109:59You obviously did cause he played at UW and then just like three or four times throughout that game.
110:04Like I was like, who the hell is five?
110:06Cause we can't tackle this kid. Uh, and that was Jeremy Bernard.
110:09And like, I remember making a note being like, okay, I want to draft this guy.
110:14Like she just looks, he moves different. Anyway, that's not like a real take.
110:18I obviously do more analysis than that over the course of rookie season, but just like watching games in college, I found
110:23myself frequently impressed by like his movement skills. And that's really translated a lot to, uh, the NFL level.
110:29And like, it makes sense to me that in this context of this offense, like where, where Rogers looking hunting quick completions,
110:34it's like they've done it a few times with DK Metcalf.
110:37It always looks weird. Cause it's not DK Metcalf's game that you, uh, they, they did like a couple of those bubble
110:43screens for him and they went like nowhere. Um, and that's not really Moose game.
110:47It's a kind of Darnell Washington's game. It's definitely Jalen Warren's game.
110:51It's never been Pippen's game either. Even if he does return like Pippen's a short area guy, but he's, he's like a wide receiver, Zach Ertz.
110:58Like he catches the ball. He falls down. He doesn't make plays happen with the ball in his hand.
111:03Sheree Bernard can. So I think that ball in hand stuff is more sustainable as a floor in this offense than like
111:09any other, because this offense will rack up a lot of short area completions, like not to the level that they did
111:14in this game, the way that they were chasing points in this game, like is not completely sustainable.
111:19But like over the course of the season, this offense throwing a lot of low eight up passes is more sustainable because
111:25of Aaron Rogers play style than it would be in most cases.
111:28And so I think you do have like a wide receiver, three wide receiver floor, four floor.
111:33You have a target floor there and then you're going to have chances for ceiling weeks.
111:37Like we just saw where, you know, he finds the end zone or they do fall multiple scores behind and they do
111:43have to do a lot of PPR spam. I think it's just a really good fit.
111:48And like, yeah, I guess it's give or take what you feel on Pittman.
111:51I think Pittman's pretty cooked. I'm not that worried about Michael Pittman.
111:55Like he was brought in as a one year rental really as like a stopgap player.
111:59He's on IR now. He's going to come back.
112:01Like, I don't know. Do I think that they're going to be that anxious to like take out this rookie who's earning
112:07trust and Aaron Rogers spoken of really confidently of just to force targets back to Michael Pittman, who's not gonna be on the team next year like that?
112:15I mean, NFL teams do things like that all the time.
112:18So I shouldn't be overly confident, but that would seem crazy to me.
112:21It's not that it's not that it's that the way that the CEOs operate their offense is they it's like they intentionally try to be unconcentrated.
112:28Like Rogers is throwing these short passes and these concepts to the guy that he hasn't thrown in a while.
112:33Like when you watch a Steelers game, they don't they don't incorporate Darnell Washington for two quarters and then they throw to
112:39him like three times on a drive and then they go back to like Fryer with the next series and then they
112:45go to like Metcalf and then it's like it's it's an intentional like we're and so let's just give him another option
112:51Pittman and it it deconcentrates the production. I don't think it would remove Bernard.
112:55I don't think it'd be forcing Pittman volume to take away from Bernard.
112:58I think they would think it's gives us another weapon and we can do more stuff.
113:03We can still do the Bernard stuff, but as far as fantasy is concerned, we want to see this week's result where
113:09it's all the volume went to Metcalf and Bernard.
113:11My point about go look at all their box scores and no one's had no one had caught more than six passes
113:17in a game in any other game all year is the volume doesn't typically concentrate in this passing game and there's usually not that much volume.
113:24There was more this week. You can look at every other box score.
113:27It is not that way with with with Pittsburgh most weeks and when it does concentrate you still have Metcalf there who is early in the year.
113:35He had some drops games. He's the one who had the 10 target games and in this game he ends up getting
113:41up there as well as they get into the heavy volume.
113:44I know it was late, but I'm not discounting that like when it when they had to start throwing they went to Metcalf.
113:50They went you know, they went to Mecca quite a bit at the end there.
113:54So my I liked your points. I think my thought would be for the different types of builds.
113:59If you have a roster that has real Q1 production, you have a Jameer Gibbs team and you're hit you've hit on multiple other guys.
114:05You have some good receivers at Parker Washington and Christian Watson at your four or five turn or something and you just
114:11need a stopgap for your wide receiver three. Then Jeremy Bernard is probably the better play than Antonio Williams because you're I
114:17agree and it's a full PPR league as well because there's a probably a full PPR half PPR point here.
114:23He's definitely a full PPR play. I do agree with you that Jeremy Bernard is the higher floor play and especially for
114:28that type of team if you're in a team that has had a bunch of injuries and you need a breakout wide
114:34receiver, which is the way that I'm like mostly looking at these things that I think Antonio Williams has the potential to
114:40be the and I think you were saying that was sort of fair, but I think we're we're we're in a similar agreement on him Jacoby Lane.
114:48I was pumped. I've talked a little bit in the newsletter lately about sort of like who are the guys that offenses
114:53try to focus on and like who are the guys that are like in the circle of trust or what have you
114:59Jacoby Lane look like he was going to be that guy in week one.
115:03They talked about him in August like he was going to be that guy when he was out on IR.
115:08There wasn't really another guy behind flowers and Derek Henry Bateman popped up one week, you know some Andrew stuff, but Andrews
115:14looks kind of dusty honestly like his slot rate is way down.
115:18They're playing flowers in the slot more and so they're doing some of the flower stuff is pushing Andrews back more in line.
115:24He's past blocking at a career high rate and he doesn't look good.
115:27His efficiencies at a career low rate yards per target and stuff even when he's out in route.
115:32So it's not Andrews for me. He's old and it's just not looking great.
115:36Lane comes back their first drive. They again, this is the Browns game where they ended up just like stop trying for
115:42whatever reason, but first drive went Henry rush flowers catch Henry rush lane catch Henry rush.
115:46I believe it was then a flowers rush, but it was another flowers touch Henry rush lane catch that it was it
115:52was this back and forth pattern of and Lane was the guy and so flowers getting the ball in hand stuff.
115:58He got a handoff lane got to like in breaking.
116:00I think they were both slants that he caught them both for first downs and then later in the first half he
116:06caught a third down third down first down conversion only has four catches in this game.
116:11He took a weird tumble right before half where he went up on the sideline got flipped and landed on the sideline.
116:16Got up looked wobbly. I thought he was going to be concussed.
116:20I've been shocked that he's not he didn't get removed from that game and has not there's been nothing reporting on him
116:26because he took a weird hit right before half.
116:28He jumped a little too high and got flipped up up ended.
116:31But early in that game was clearly a part of what they did offensively.
116:35Well, when they got that 10 0 lead and then they ended up not scoring anymore.
116:39They have losing to the Browns. I think he's he's like the guy that they want to be this contested catch vertical
116:45route runner down the field looks great. He's another one for me that fits in.
116:49I think all these guys are very fantastic like waiver plays for this week, but he'd be another one that fits into the Q2 discussion.
116:56And if I was drafting today, I'd probably want Jacoby Lane maybe a little bit later for me.
117:01He'd be closer to Jeremy. And again, it would be a conversation of ceiling versus floor where I think like Jeremy's going
117:07to have the more consistent volume lane the way that offense runs may not, but he hasn't really even gotten to play with Lamar a lot.
117:14And I do think there's some potential that he's a pretty meaningful hit.
117:17So anyway, he's a fun like like as that same concept we were talking about with Omar Cooper when you're the clear
117:23number two off a legit elite number one, which is what Zay Flowers has been.
117:27I think Lane could really consolidate that ancillary receiving stuff the way that Isaiah likely has and the way that, you know,
117:33these number two, sometimes it's just a two man game.
117:36Flowers is so dynamic. It's going to be hard for anyone to stop him.
117:39And then if Lane gets one-on-ones off of that, it's a Chase Higgins point, right?
117:44Like there's never the wide receiver three never does anything.
117:46And then sometimes gets sick. He catches a TD, but like no one does anything else in that, in that past game.
117:52It's, it's a one, two, it's a lamb pickings or whatever.
117:55Like there's some guys there that are doing some stuff like Florida is doing some stuff, but it's usually lamb pickings, right?
118:01So, um, Lane, there's less pass volume than the Bengals and the Cowboys.
118:04It is in this Ravens offense, but I think Lane could be that clear number two.
118:09And then you can consolidate enough, even though there's not a lot of volume.
118:13I know you weren't as high on him as a prospect, but are you, are you pretty pumped about him now?
118:18Yeah. The other three were like all guys that I, I think I liked a little bit more than the consensus, um, especially Williams.
118:25Um, and then this one was probably one that I, well, definitely one that I liked less, but I mean, I think I was just clearly wrong.
118:32Like he looks really good though. The craziest thing we're not going to go.
118:36I promise we're not going to go on this, this long of a tangent.
118:39Cause I don't even know the answer. I'm curious when the last time would be that two wide receivers came out of the same school.
118:46One was viewed very widely as the better prospect.
118:49And then the other one like ended up being a smash.
118:51And then the top one ended up being a bust.
118:54I'm not declaring with Kyle lemon a bust yet.
118:57It's just fascinating to me that like of all the rookies, the one who's gotten off to the worst start is my Kyle lemon.
119:03He's a long way to go. Not, not remotely ending things for him, but then lane has been one of the great
119:09surprises and they put the same offense. It's very interesting.
119:12I don't know. I would, I'll have to look into this someday, but I, I wouldn't be the right guy to ask about that.
119:18But, um, people were saying, cause like a lava was thought to be worse than Garrett Wilson and even JSN and people
119:24early in the career were like, well, a lot of it was actually surprising the best.
119:28Yes. And that, but so then Garrett Wilson's been better, but for a bit there, people were saying he was better.
119:34The other one I'm thinking of is, um, I thought of Almond Ross, St.
119:38Brown and Drake London cause we're doing the USC thing.
119:40But again, London has also been good. So it's not, but Almond Ross, St.
119:44Brown was a day three picks are kind of correlated.
119:47Like usually it's like you, usually you're looking back on some of these situations and you're like, Oh, like why wasn't, you
119:53know, why wasn't one guy more dominant? And it's like, well, because they were all amazing.
119:57You know, it's like that you, those USC teams had Pittman and London and St.
120:01Brown or whatever. And it's like, well, actually they were all hits, you know?
120:05Um, and Ohio State, I mean, I guess Marvin Harrison looks like a bust and there was a bunch of wide receivers
120:11who got dwarfed in production by Marvin Harrison. But, um, so maybe that's one.
120:14I met Kibuka. People think like him more than him.
120:17Well, people think he's good cause he turned 30 targets into 90 yards.
120:21But anyway, um, 16 targets for 40. So you were talking about ethical production.
120:24That was absurd. You get 16 targets in that game.
120:27It was insane. Anyway, sorry. What are your thoughts on, um, Lane?
120:30Yeah. I mean, he, it's just, it looks like he can play first off, just like as he looks like a guy that can play.
120:37And then you mean you, you, you laid it out, right?
120:40There's, there's only two guys in this offense that have been working.
120:43It's been Henry and it's been flowers and there's an obvious opening for a third guy to step into that void.
120:49Um, and so if Lane shows up to it, like, yeah, he can consolidate a lot of the volume that's been like
120:55scattered around to the Bateman and Andrews and shout out Josh Cuavis.
120:58Uh, you highlighted the coolest play in the NFL this week that they use Josh Cuavis on, um, that we have a
121:04hard out, so I'm not going to describe, but it was sick.
121:07And then, uh, anyways, I, the, there's definitely a clear opportunity for Lane.
121:11Like how much volume in a low volume passing offense, you know, can like the, the number two take up?
121:16Cause like I, I, my priors have come up on lane, but I don't, I still don't think he's any, any, anywhere
121:22close as a flowers in terms of volume dominance.
121:24I don't know. I think I would put him fourth of the, of the four in this group, but like pretty close to Williams for me.
121:31Um, and I think I, I, I don't know, he'd be like right on the borderline of the, of the quarter two, quarter three cutoff.
121:38Like he would be one of the last guys of the wide receiver window kind of in that, that mold.
121:43If we were redrafting today, we've been talking about this hard out.
121:47We have about a half an hour left top.
121:49So we are going to, for the listeners, it's my fault.
121:52I'm, I'm going, I, uh, I have a concert tonight in Seattle, ironically, that's where Ben's from.
121:57Um, but we're, we're seeing geese tonight. Um, so if there's any fans to listen to us or in Seattle, come say hi.
122:03But, uh, anyways, uh, so it's my fault on the hard out.
122:06We're going to, we're going to motor through, we're going to get through this injury return.
122:10Guys, uh, are interesting to me. Four of them on IR currently, but Coleman is going to be activated.
122:15I think very quickly price doesn't seem too far off.
122:18They've been talking about him not being that hurt.
122:20Um, or I mean, like I, I got mad at our buddy Davis Maddox when he tweeted something about like, he's probably not even injured.
122:27Like, no, I just, man, that drives me nuts.
122:30I'm sorry. But that, cause I've heard that take on other guys too.
122:33Oh, you, you do it with Eli Stowers. I mean, I just don't think that's the way that any of this stuff works.
122:39But like, I do think there are times when like guys are banged up and they're like, yeah, we want to get him healthy.
122:46And I think that's part of what happened with prices.
122:48Like he already had one injury. He, he re-injured it and they're like, it's a long season.
122:53We, we like, we need to let this rookie actually get healthy.
122:56I think they're doing it with Jeremiah love right now, who I have on this list as well.
123:01Um, we saw what Gentie too. You return these guys too soon.
123:04They re-injure like, yeah, you put them on IR.
123:07You give them four weeks. You give them the full, get them to a hundred percent.
123:11It doesn't mean they're not hurt. I just think that's absurd.
123:14Anyway, Jordan Tyson, uh, Janarian price, Jeremiah love Jonah Coleman, Dijon stripling.
123:17Stripling's the one where they're going on a buy pretty quick.
123:20Like people had originally talked about it, like around like week 10 ish.
123:24I'm hearing that it's going to be more like week 12 ish.
123:27Like it's, it's still a little ways off for him.
123:30Obviously opportunity in the Niners passing game. Everyone gets hurt for the Niners, but it might even be a thing where like Mike Evans is healthier.
123:37Debo Samuel is healthier. Those guys get back sooner than stripling.
123:39It's not like striplings, like around the corner from returning Tyson.
123:42Tyson, we know has had that chronic hamstring stuff dating to college played through it in his final college game.
123:48Uh, you know, put the team on his back for a, for a win.
123:52And then has had hamstring injuries ever since like all off season through the process into the preseason.
123:56They put them on IR. I guess what Tyson, I feel like, yes, the re-injury risk is high, but whenever they activate
124:02him this time, they're going to have given him enough time.
124:05It's that same concept with the pricing where it's like, you get the re-injury and stuff like we just got to get this guy, right?
124:12I kind of feel like when Tyson's back, he'll be hopefully good to go.
124:16You've talked a lot about him. You wrote about him in your, your take thing.
124:20But like when we talked about the John Johnson stuff, you are high on Tyson and you are concerned out for, for
124:26John Johnson and for, um, Devon Valle, Tyson's return.
124:28Cause Tyson's good enough that he could be potentially even as good as, um, Chris Alave.
124:32And you're talking about a one, two man punch, like the lane return was a flowers potentially.
124:37And I, I do acknowledge that's very plausible. Tyson has a very fun prospect profile, um, rapid fire.
124:42I'm going to say Tyson is a quarter two guy, but I could see saying he's a high quarter two guy price.
124:48I'm going to say high quarter to love. I'm going to say still quarter one when he comes back.
124:53I mean, this, this is when they come back when they're healthy and going forward.
124:57Yeah. Price to me is a still a clear quarter one player.
125:00Um, has looked awesome. We've talked a lot about that.
125:03You wrote about that in your takes column as well.
125:05I know you agree that he has looked good enough that once he's healthy, he should still be a difference maker.
125:11Jonah. And I think he goes in the top two rounds next year.
125:15Jonah Coleman. I'm going to say quarter two. Like, I think he's moved up enough and Dobbins has looked bad enough.
125:20I think maybe you're higher than me on Coleman.
125:23I don't think, I think you said in your writeup that he's their best back.
125:27I think RJ Harvey's a buy right now. I don't think RJ Harvey is going to go away.
125:32Peyton's always used the two backs. And I do think even though Peyton has devalued him, I think that's, I think he's a legitimate buy.
125:38I've made this case in signals as well. Cause I think a lot of times people say guys are buys.
125:44They're not even gettable. I think RJ Harvey's value is down and probably for fair reasons, but there's real ceiling to the,
125:50to the profile with how he catches passes. And I do think there's room for him to actually see his role expand
125:55in the ways that it hasn't yet. And if it did, I think his range of scoring would be very positive.
126:01So I think he's a legitimately devalued by that has real potential to score well in PPR, especially because I do think
126:07he could play a pretty meaningful role down the stretch in this backfield.
126:10And I know he's not like a been a great runner, but I do think he could actually, you know, catch a lot of passes and run more.
126:18And he he's had some explosiveness to his runs in his career, just not a consistency.
126:22So anyway, Coleman for me is a more of a low quarter to guy.
126:26I think he's the second best bet in the Broncos backfield.
126:29Probably. I do think he's interesting. And there are paths for him to take over the whole backfield, which you kind of implied as well.
126:36Well, stripling to me would be a quarter. I'm going to say quarter four.
126:39Like it's, it's, it is a, it is a long shot with stripling.
126:43What do you, what do you have as a rapid fire for the injury?
126:47Mostly in line. I'll, I mean, I, I, I'm already somewhat forgetting exactly what number you gave each person, but I, I
126:53was like, do your own with the vibes of what you're saying.
126:56Uh, I'll, I'll Tyson. Like there's a strong chance that this injury just derails his entire season.
127:00But like, I, I still think if he comes back healthy and is able to stay healthy, which are two huge ifs that I think he will be.
127:08My hot take would be, he's, he will be the most productive rookie wide receiver from the time he comes back on
127:14the field to the end of the season. I, I, I really think he is.
127:18I, I, I, I felt strongly that he was the best wide receiver in the class.
127:22All the reviews about him through training cramp, training camp were excellent.
127:25He walks into a very favorable situation for fantasy production.
127:28Um, and I, I really think the biggest issue with him is just the health, but I'm, I'm a huge fan of the talent.
127:35Um, I haven't stashed in a couple of places and I'm like pumped for him to come back.
127:39I think it'll be week nine or 10. I'm hopeful.
127:42And I'm really hopeful that he stays healthy, um, over the course of that period.
127:46Cause I'm, I'm really excited about his potential. Um, price, I expect, I mean, he'd be Q2.
127:51Like he, I mean, definitely. I mean, I think he's, I think he's the best rusher on the team still.
127:56I feel pretty good about saying that. I think the, his season went in a really unfortunate direction where he wasn't able
128:02to consolidate the high value touches before Charbonnet's return.
128:04Charbonnet is probably going to play this week. He's going to beat him back.
128:08Um, I think that it will be difficult for price to wrestle away those pass catching and goal line chances from a guy that they really trust.
128:15Cause even if Charbonnet is not explosive and hampered from the injury, like that might be the work that they care least about that aspect for.
128:22And so I could see price, like just being in a kind of a frustrating role, but I definitely think like, go
128:28look at running back rankings this week, you know, like, look at, look at like trying to rank the RB 22 this
128:34week, even if price isn't getting a ton of goal line touches, uh, and, and not playing a ton and like comeback mode.
128:40Like if you can get 14 carries and two targets and the chance of running one in from the eight yard line,
128:46uh, you know, from a really explosive, talented player at this point in the season, that's starting player.
128:51Love that. And there's some stuff that's worked in his favor in terms of the other backs failing.
128:56Emmanuel Wilson has failed. George Alani has struggled. And if, if Charbonnet is now, now it's, I agree with everything you said
129:02about Charbonnet, but now it's just Charbonnet. That is the concern.
129:05And if Charbonnet, there's still uncertainty. If he comes back and he looks a lot worse than last year, or he really
129:11struggles in a meaningful way, then you have, then, I mean, then you have some, you know, maybe price just winds up
129:17like really hitting a ceiling at that point. But anyway, I agree with Lou.
129:20Love. I agree. I'm in the bag for Jeremiah.
129:23Love and Q1. Like it's, I feel like more confident about like, I don't even know my subscribers brought to my attention
129:29that there's like negative sentiment about him and like dynasty community.
129:32And I would, I like, I've never been more comfortable in my life planting a flag on someone to not worry about than Jeremiah love in dynasty.
129:39But even from a redraft perspective. Yeah. I mean, I, I would take the shot for sure.
129:44Like he would be, I don't know when he's going to come back.
129:47Exactly. Sounds like he's not going to play this week, but.
129:50Once he comes back, like I would probably rank him as a top 15 back rest of the season.
129:55There's not a lot of other opportunities to get that type of talent upside.
129:59So I would view him kind of the same way that I viewed him before the season, which is like one of
130:05the last calls before we get into that or dead zone area.
130:08Jonah Coleman. I mean, he, he would be like, like, I'm trying to think of where I would draft the Broncos backs right now.
130:14Like it would be like all, all three of them would be kind of in that QT, Q2, like back end Q2,
130:20low end Q or high end Q3, like kind of morass of the zero RB range.
130:25Right. I mean, it's ambiguous spot. I mean, it's just, it's a spot where like Dobbins projects the best this week.
130:30He would be the last Broncos running back. I would have interest in unless you just really need him to start for the next couple of weeks.
130:38Cause it just, he feels so fragile. He's played really not well this year.
130:41And I guess the reason I'm so high on Coleman is that they've had Harvey healthy all this time.
130:46Dobbins has been not playing well at all and they still haven't trusted Harvey to take on more work.
130:51I think that's a mistake. I'm mostly with you.
130:54I think that they would have been better off playing Harvey in a more expanded role this whole time.
130:59But like the fact that they haven't been willing to just, I just kind of reinforces to me that I think that
131:05they see Harvey as a role player. I think if Coleman didn't exist and they had to go through the entire rest
131:11of the season, like it would just be inevitable that Harvey encroaches more on Dobbins rushing over time, because I think you
131:17just can't sustain this level of, of play. But Coleman kind of gives him another door.
131:21I mean, I think he's just going to be like immediately a better runner than JK Dobbins and whatever opportunities he gets.
131:27And he's also a more well-rounded player than JK Dobbins.
131:30Dobbins is not a great pass catcher. He's a bad pass blocker.
131:33You can play Jonah Coleman in every game situation.
131:35Like I think he's better than JK Dobbins right now.
131:38I love JK Dobbins, the player. I think he was one of the best rushers in this league for a long time.
131:44But he's, he's not got it anymore. And I think Coleman provides a better element in what JK Dobbins is best.
131:50He's a lot more well-rounded. You can't start him this week or anytime soon, but he's like one of the priority stashes
131:55to me of a guy who's available around and like just grab him and see what happens because there's a need here in this backfield.
132:02And he's a guy that I like a lot.
132:05And I love what we saw out of him in week two.
132:08I thought he looked great. Yeah, I do. I agree on Coleman being a stash for sure.
132:12The reason I was to circle onto the Harvey by low.
132:15And I was like, he's a, he's a real by low and not everybody loves an actual gettable guy.
132:20There's a narrative and probably a fair one that since Sean Payton took over the play calling, they have, he has devalued
132:26Harvey, which is a concern for Harvey. And now with Coleman coming back, there's, there is this vibe right now that Coleman's coming back.
132:33And so that's bad for Harvey. That's why I actually do think it's an interesting time to consider buying on Harvey because
132:39those are real concerns, but like there's an actual low element to the by low.
132:43Don't go give a massive offer or anything. I agree with you on the Coleman stuff.
132:47Bad for Harvey. I think it's, I think it's bad for Harvey in the sense of like, I mean, I think, I
132:53think the word you described used in signals this week was not sustainable.
132:56Like about JK Dobbins or something has to give.
132:59I think he'd said. Yeah. So I compared him to the other guys that are at the very bottom of the rush
133:05yards, over expected leaderboard on NFL pro. And all of those guys have given up work included chase Brown.
133:10It includes guys that you like, but we started to see PRine get used.
133:14It's a high profile dude, but like the team's like, look, and it's not that they're looking at the rush yard over
133:20expected staff, but it's a proxy for what they're looking at, which is he's not hitting the right holes and he's not
133:25getting the yards that need to be gained. It was Marshawn Lloyd was on that list and he's lost to like three different other backs.
133:32And these, a lot of different guys that like teams are not prioritizing.
133:36And Dobbins is the one that's right there with them.
133:38And it's like, they're actually leaning into Dobbins right now.
133:41And that just doesn't seem sustainable. Yeah. I wrote about this with Brown, but it was two weeks ago, I think where
133:47I, um, where I highlighted where he was this exact stat.
133:50I don't, and I didn't see this note or whenever you put it up, but, um, it was like, people make a
133:56lot of fun of RYOE, but I, I usually make a, I usually make this point around this time of the year,
134:02because it's almost always true that like the stat that everyone bashes and it has its faults.
134:06I totally agree. It has its faults, but the stat that everyone hates on every year, usually you look around mid season
134:12and it is a bunch of running backs. Either everyone agrees sucks or players that we thought were good, who are having
134:18disappointing seasons and are giving up work half of the season.
134:21Like it's that usually tends to be the case.
134:23And so there's, there's like something there that's being measured.
134:26Um, I mean, I guess it's also like to be measured by yards per carry.
134:30So if you want to just like be a Luddite, you can also say that if you're running for 3.2 yards per
134:36carry, you're going to give up work, you know, that, that probably works too.
134:40But I wrote it after the Thursday night game on last Friday.
134:43Cause that's when Dobbins played and Emmanuel Wilson played.
134:45He's the other one. And Emmanuel Wilson keeps losing work to like George Halani, but he's the other one that's been very negative and rush yards over expected.
134:53Um, anyways. So yeah. But to your point about the stat, I was just reinforcing, like it has been pretty good at
134:59picking out, you know, the running backs that are at the extremes, not doing what they're expected to do.
135:04Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think, yeah, the degree is bad for Harvey.
135:08I guess what I was trying to say was to the degree is bad for Harvey.
135:12I think is, is that the, the JK Dobbins situation is not sustainable.
135:16And Jonah Coleman gives the Broncos another option of how to resolve the JK Dobbins situation.
135:20Whereas if Coleman didn't exist, then it would like have to be Harvey because there'd be no other option.
135:25Like your option, whether it would just be run into a wall for three yards carry or play RJ Harvey.
135:30Now they have a third door, which is they could put more on Coleman and keep Harvey in his role.
135:36It's a good point. Yeah. But I don't think it's like, he's, I don't think Coleman's going to come in and steal work from Harvey.
135:42Like Harvey's the best back on the team, what he's doing in his current role.
135:46Stribbling was the last guy. Yeah. Q4. I mean, it's too bad because the, everyone is completely fallen like flies in this past, the game.
135:53And I'm struggling and probably be killing it right now, but yeah, it sounds like it's just going to be a really long recovery.
136:00So. I did. Yeah. It's scaled up. I did say once guys are back.
136:03So let's, let's make an assumption that let's say he's back in 12 week 15.
136:07He may, he may, but let's say he's back in.
136:10Okay. In week 12 or something. If he's back in week 12, I'll give him a Q3, but I guess I don't think he's going to be.
136:17Yeah. That's okay. That's sort of how I was thinking about it as well.
136:21All right. That's the injury return guys. Other high profile names.
136:24We've talked about a lot of these guys have been around.
136:27People know what we think about the profiles, but a check-in on Makai Lemon, who's not producing, but Tanner McKee in his
136:33first start through 40 passes, both of his prior to career starts, he threw 40 passes.
136:37He's a six, six guy from Stanford who was like, I only say from Stanford, cause it's like another one of those
136:43types of like tall pocket pass, like Davis Mills.
136:46And obviously, you know, you had Andrew Luck and these dudes before.
136:49They have a, they seem to have a style of quarterback that comes out of Stanford, but this tall pocket passer.
136:54And he, it's like drop back conversion rates. It's going to go up.
136:58Pass rate was high. It was the highest PR or we in the league that partly because you have Barkley hurt.
137:04And you have Damien Pierce is the lead back and everything.
137:07They are going to run more with a young quarterback going forward, but there's some potential with the shift away from Jalen
137:12hurts that you have a lot more pass volume for lemon.
137:15Anyway, he's not producing lemon right now. Tate is to a degree more than I actually probably thought.
137:20Although my big argument on Tate was, it's not going to be an explosive breakout.
137:24There's going to be some production. There has been some though.
137:27And there's like some reason to believe maybe an explosive breakout's coming.
137:30We have Denzel Boston, who's been very efficient, but not getting enough volume as a downfield receiver.
137:35And I blame that on the quarterback. Casey's concept.
137:37See, I'm kind of blame on the quarterback as well.
137:40Have both those guys. And Sadiq is not playing a lot right now, which is frustrating.
137:44I'm going to put Sadiq in Q3. Boston for me is a Q2 guy.
137:48I'll put Concepcion in Q3. I'm a little more concerned about him.
137:51I understand his style of play is more fit for what Deshaun Watson does, but I just, I mean, this offense I think is killing everybody.
137:58It's killing Fannin. It's killing Judkins, but Boston has been a little bit of a revelation.
138:03I think I would be willing to make the Q2 bet.
138:06It's more about elevating Boston than moving Concepcion down.
138:08I would put Fannin in Q3 or later as well.
138:11Tate is a Q2 guy comfortably. I think I would have to move him up from where I had him ranked preseason,
138:17which was a little bit below his ADP, but I think I'd have him ahead of his ADP from preseason.
138:22I think you have to feel good about what he's done so far.
138:26Makai Lemon, you'd have to move down from where we had him ranked and where he was graded, but I think I
138:31would still have him as a back end Q2 guy, high end Q3.
138:35I don't think I would have him deep. I would take Lemon over Concepcion, I guess is, you know, to be, and
138:41I, Concepcion's done a little bit more, but I just, I guess I think there's more ceiling if Lemon does hit.
138:46What do you think about these guys? Um, Tate, definitely high Q2.
138:50I mean, he'd be, if we were drafting today, he'd be the second rookie off the board, I think easily.
138:55Maybe even be the first, depending on where you feel about Jeremiah loves health.
138:59So, um, definitely Q2 for Tate. I think he's been impressive.
139:02Um, Lemon, he'd be, he'd be firmly in Q3 for me.
139:05Um, it's just, we haven't, we just haven't seen enough, um, anywhere close to it.
139:09And I, I put some of the blame on, on like Hertz and the scheme early in the season.
139:14We still haven't seen enough from him. And then, you know, it's only been one week at Tanner McKee.
139:19I understand he had six targets, but like, that's still a really low share of, of 44 dropbacks.
139:24We'll see. I, I would be like Q3 for now.
139:26And like, I'm almost in the mindset of, I want to give him like a couple more weeks to see if we
139:32can have some more success with Tanner McKee before you just cut him.
139:36I I'm probably like, I like lemon a lot as a prospect.
139:39I'm probably inclined to be like a lemon truther next year.
139:42And I'll probably be a little bit higher than his ADP coming off of what I expect to be probably a bad rookie season, but I don't know.
139:50The offense looks pretty dysfunctional. Um, lemon hasn't shown a ton of ability.
139:53They haven't shown a ton of intent. I mean, they showed some intent to get on them, like some ball in hand
139:59stuff earlier in the season that didn't really work.
140:01Um, I don't know. I, I have a hard time with lemon.
140:05Like he, he right now it's like there's the path is at best to be the number two.
140:09Pass catcher number three option in like a pretty terrible offense that I, I guess is going to have a higher dropback conversion rates.
140:16That's a positive, but it's also not even that clear.
140:19He would be that number two pass catcher. I'd say he's behind Goddard in the pecking order right now.
140:24He's, he's not like dusted wicks at any point yet.
140:26Um, it's just, it's just hard to be excited about lemon.
140:29I feel like you need to get a lot of things right for him to be like an every week starter.
140:35Um, so I, I'd put him behind like that whole group that we, we saw kind of the emergent lane Williams Bernard.
140:41I, I agree with you that he could be cuttable in a few weeks.
140:45Um, and I just kind of, I, it is, it feels like a little bit of an inflection point for him as well.
140:51Um, as all these other players, but I, but I do agree with you that he could be cuttable.
140:56I, I guess I disagree that like the point about like there being a lot of things, it's, it's sort of like
141:02if, if, if my high lemon's good enough, then like, he's the first round rookie, their seasons going down the shitter.
141:08Like they want to get my high lemon going in the second half.
141:11I do agree with the take that like so far they've not been using him effectively.
141:15And it feels a little bit like JSN's rookie year.
141:18And you're thinking like more 20, 27, 20, 28, like the guy can develop a little bit.
141:23If he's a hit, he may never even be good.
141:25Like comparing him to JSN implies a ceiling that may not even ever be there.
141:29But I, I just think like he could be immediately good enough.
141:32Um, that like, it just rewrites all of that.
141:35You know what I mean? Like, like if like, well, I don't know that there's any reason to believe that he's going to do that.
141:42It's like yards per hour runner, like sub one right now.
141:45He's been running routes and not producing, but like if he, if he starts to produce, if he starts like his prospect profile was legitimately really strong.
141:52It's a little bit odd, but guys do start slow sometimes.
141:55And if he starts to hit, they will. That's the thing.
141:58It's an anti-fragile point point, the type point that if he has one good game, they will lean into that.
142:03It will snowball positively quickly. Like I'm just basically waiting for that one good game.
142:07And then it's like, we're off to the races with it.
142:10Cause they're going to be like, yeah, we want to use McKay lemon a ton.
142:14We're going to build a whole offense around using McKay lemon, even to the detriment of Devonta Smith, potentially not, not like
142:20fully that to that degree, but like this idea of like Dallas Goddard and where he fits and stuff.
142:25I, that was a part I was like, I'm not tracking.
142:28I would, I think if he hits it, he's going to hit.
142:31And it's just going to be all McKay lemon all the time.
142:35After that. I mean, it's just, we've, I guess what's, what's frustrating is I feel like there's already been a lot of opportunities for him.
142:41Like he had the weeks without Devonta Smith to play and where he could have stepped up as the number one.
142:47We had this week. I mean, it's only been one week, but he had the really high pass rate week with Tanner McKee quarterback.
142:53He's probably more willing to throw some of those intermediate routes that Jalen hurts won't that helps McKay lemon.
142:58So it's like, we've kind of had three straight weeks where there's been an impetus for McKay lemon to step up.
143:04He's failed to do so. And so like, it's, it's, I'm not like punting on him this year and certainly not long-term,
143:10but it, I guess it feels to me that because he's had such clear opportunities and they haven't resulted in production, that
143:16either he's not good enough or this team is just kind of out to lunch with him in the way that they're using him.
143:22And either way, I guess it's just hard for me to understand why that would change going forward as the situation kind of gets worse.
143:29Like he had a chance with no Goddard, no Smith, like now those guys are back.
143:33Like I, it's not over, but like, it feels, it feels like the opportunities are, are reducing to me, I guess.
143:39Totally. And they, it's more than, it's more than it feels like that.
143:43They are. That's what I'm saying. Like he could be droppable in a few weeks, but I think people are already dropping him because the opportunities are reducing.
143:50And what I'm trying to emphasize is, people are, and I don't want to drop me yet.
143:55And I'd bid on him next week. Yeah. If you can't get, if you, you can't get your hands on Cooper and
144:01Antonio Williams and Jeremy and Lane and stuff. And like lemons getting cut, like that's where you, I said that at the
144:06beginning of the show, there's more boats that are coming.
144:09I think I said, the beginning of the show, or maybe I said to you pre-show.
144:13I think I said on the show, like you missed the boat, more boats are coming.
144:18Makai lemon is a boat. Oh, you can get on and, and pick up and, and see for the next couple of weeks, if it starts to develop.
144:25And he, he could, if he hits, I still strongly believe this.
144:28He could hit better than all of the guys that we've spent most of the show talking about, including Cooper, Antonio Williams,
144:34Jeremy Bernard lane, obviously had more draft capital with them.
144:37He had more, a much bigger prospect profile where the Eagles are going with.
144:41Now I drop back passer offense in a lost season.
144:44It would, it would make perfect sense for them to just be like the Makai lemon show.
144:48Like if you want the almond raw St. Brown second half, I'm not saying Brown had some quiet games in the first half of his rookie season.
144:55And then suddenly it was just the whole offense.
144:58The second half, the guy lemon could be that guy this year.
145:01I mean, it's, I'm not saying it's going to be, but it's possible.
145:04I think it's possible. It's worth throwing them on the end of your bench.
145:08If you want to, if you want the next guy to be early on, you, you hit on everyone.
145:13I mean, I think that's fair. Um, the Browns guys, I mean, conception.
145:17I mean, I would definitely rather have conception than lemon.
145:20I would disagree with you on that one. Um, why, what do you see?
145:23Good stuff. Sounds good. Oh, how do you know in their offense?
145:26Like, I just think he's like, he's looked more impressive to me and he's been featured more in their offense.
145:32Like I, and they're both like, he has a one point.
145:35He has a 1.18 yards per outrun. He has a 5.8 yards per target.
145:39He's earning targets. He is earning targets, but like the post target efficiency is the concern.
145:43You said like, he's good. I don't put a lot of that on him.
145:47I mean, maybe you could, I guess I, I personally don't.
145:50I mean, that's obviously going to be an issue rest of the season.
145:53Cause the guy who's creating the post target efficiency is still gonna be his quarterback.
145:57But like, I think some of it is unlucky.
146:00Like he's been able to create post target efficiency for Denzel Boston.
146:03Why, why do you delineate? Concepcion, like everything you just said could apply to Makai Lemon.
146:07But Lemon isn't earning targets either. Oh, okay. Well, I mean, he missed a lot of August and he was a little
146:13banged up and like, yeah, you get like the way he was being used running in the flat early on.
146:18But yes, like I, I, I hear that. Um, but I think you can make it.
146:23I think is leading his team in targets per route.
146:25I'm, I believe I don't have it in front of me right now.
146:29I think he's even leading them in raw targets.
146:31He may be. Yeah. but like he's hasn't done anything with any of the work.
146:35I don't, I don't know why we know that he's good.
146:38It was my point. There's a lot of uncertainty.
146:41I think we're splitting hairs is more of my point.
146:43I, I, I agree that I don't, I don't see it as splitting hairs.
146:47I think there's a market difference. I think it's like one guy has stepped up as he's, he's been used as like
146:53a co number one in their offense. He's played a full-time roles, earned a lot of targets.
146:58I think he's looked, I think he's passed the eye test.
147:01I think most, a lot of the like inefficiency post target has been just him getting missed by Watson.
147:06And I mean, Boston has been really impressive, but I just think Watson is honestly just thrown better balls to Denzel Boston.
147:12And he asked Casey Concepcion when he's had chances to do so over the intermediate.
147:16Like I, I don't know. I think, I think that Concepcion is shown like just watching the games to me.
147:21Concepcion is winning more frequently than a Kyle lemon is on his chances.
147:24Like, Oh, I'm not immediate routes. Like I think he's just beating corners more, more frequently.
147:29Yeah. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not going to argue that point necessarily.
147:32I just, I, the point was like, and then, sorry, I'm definitely not going to argue that point at all.
147:38When I said splitting hairs, I think you're right.
147:40I was just saying, why can we be so sure?
147:43Because it's uncertainty based. And we're talking about breakouts that are going to be something different than what we've seen so far.
147:49Cause he doesn't have 200 yards through six weeks.
147:51Like what you're saying for lemon is that he's going to be something better going forward.
147:55And what I'm saying is like his situation is not changing.
147:58That's like some of that stuff is fair, especially the target earning.
148:02I guess I didn't realize he, he is leaving the team in targets.
148:05I didn't realize quite the degree of his targets.
148:07And part of that's because there's like a, we're just joking about a Mecca booka thing.
148:12Like there's an, a Mecca booka thing here. You got 35 targets and you have 186 yards.
148:16It's not ideal. Like you have a 5.3 yards per target.
148:19You can put that all on Watson, but that's a really low number.
148:23And he, he does actually have decent yak numbers.
148:25So it, I mean, anyway, I, yeah, because he's, he's gotten a lot of these short area targets that have been fine.
148:31And then he's had some chances where he's won on intermediate routes and, and Watson is missed.
148:36I mean, he's had some that have been like playable balls that he hasn't been able to come down with.
148:41And so it's not all Watson, but like, that's, I don't know that I've seen like the play strength and stuff with him.
148:47I've been a little, like, I'm not saying I'm disappointed in him, but I've been a little bit like, is he more than just a gadget player?
148:54You know what I mean? And if he's not in a good situation, it's a fair question.
148:59I mean, I think, yes. I mean, a lot of that's based on the prospect profile, profile still for me.
149:04And I mean, that's what's holding. That's, I mean, that's all that's holding on hope for lemon, right?
149:09I mean, it's really the prospect profile. Like if lemon was around, if lemon was around four pick, we'd be like, this guy stinks.
149:16So it's a lot of the, the priors. And, and I mean, that, the priors are holding through for Casey for me
149:22primarily, but I, I do feel like the route running has showed up.
149:25The play strength, I think is a fair point.
149:27And that was an issue in college too, is that he had drop issues.
149:31So, I mean, I feel better about him than lemon.
149:34What I was, what I was going to get to is like, I feel a lot better about Casey as like a player individually.
149:40And from a dynasty perspective, and maybe even from like a rest of season floor perspective or best ball perspective than a
149:46lot of the guys that we mentioned at the top of the show, but I would probably put him as yeah.
149:52High Q three, because like, like, I mean, outside of just efficiency regression, it's not obvious how things get better for Casey than what we've seen.
149:59Right? Like he, he's already leading them in targets.
150:01He's already running a bunch of routes. That's right.
150:04That's why, that's my concern. So like the way that it hits for him, that's why I'm saying the lemon thing is
150:10like with McKee and throwing a lot of passes.
150:12And I, I'm sorry, I keep cutting you off, but I was, I was asking why not to be like, you're wrong.
150:18I want to understand. And you've made some points that have helped me understand your perspective, but mine would be, you have
150:24Tanner McKee, you have a lost season. He's going to throw 40 times a game.
150:28And I just kind of laid it out. And I think you kind of agreed that like, if McKee lemon does start
150:34to play better football, there's then room for them to like use him in the offense in a, where they drop back pastor.
150:40And I'm not saying that he's going to be way better than Watson, but it's just like a more functional team.
150:46They have like a better offense, offensive line and different things going on and, and less competition, even though Devonta Smith is there.
150:52And like, they've been, I mean, are they still more functional team though?
150:55Like maybe not, maybe not. They traded one offensive lineman, another one retired.
150:59I think their coach is a jackass. And maybe I should be lower on lemon.
151:03Just the way you're kind of saying you should maybe be lower on Concepcion from a redraft perspective specifically.
151:08Cause you made those points that you're feeling good about Concepcion for dynasty that I think are very fair, but I think
151:14we're both kind of working toward like, yeah, I mean maybe I, I don't know.
151:18I, I'll acknowledge like lemon could be a cut pretty quickly, but I, I guess I think if, if he starts to
151:24settle in at some point, like a post by settle in or whatever, like it has only been six games and he
151:30did miss a lot of the off season that lemon could have a really strong stretch.
151:34And I guess I just don't see that for Concepcion.
151:37I don't know. Yeah, I think it's fair. I mean, I think it's more just, I'm really, I, I'm really bearish on the lemon.
151:43I mean, I just think that this is the, I think this is going to be like one of the worst teams in the NFL.
151:50And, and, and lemon has, has, hasn't been good with it.
151:53So are the lions, the lions went. So all of them, Ross St.
151:56Brown played every game early in his career. The lions were a fun offense through week 12.
152:01He had had over, but he had a couple of games that were like 70 yards, 65 yards, 61.
152:06Um, a couple of games with seven catches, six catches.
152:09He was doing some stuff, but like a lot of these games, one catch, no catches, two catches in that rookie year.
152:15And then he closed famously six straight games, double digit targets, eight plus catches, 70 plus yards.
152:19He had a touchdown on five of those six games.
152:22It was massively consistent. It was awesome. I'm not saying that my column is going to be that, but right before that
152:28stretch started, he had four targets, four catches, 23 yards the week prior the week before that.
152:32He had four targets, four catches, 18 yards. He had two games in a row with four catches and sub 25 yards.
152:38There was no like imminent. There was no like imminent production.
152:41And then, and they went three and 13. Right.
152:44But they were a fun offense. They were a horrible defense.
152:47They, they actually were kind of fun and kind of competitive on offense.
152:50I mean, the biggest difference I see is like, Aminra was a fourth round pick.
152:54Who was not really part of the plan early in the year.
152:57Wasn't even running all the routes really in the year.
153:00And then like through like probably some combination of behind the scenes, practice work and on field performance.
153:05Like he eventually became a way bigger part of their plans.
153:08And then he became the massive focal point over the end of the year.
153:12That to me is like an easier story to sell myself on for like an Antonio Williams or a Jeremy Bernard or a Jacoby lane.
153:18Like guys who like weren't the guy coming into the year.
153:21Then Makai Lemon, who like Casey was a first round pick.
153:24Like he's been running all the routes all year.
153:27So I, I, I guess I just see the Aminra comparison.
153:30The game I said before his first double digit target game, when he had four catches for 23 yards, he played 98% of the snaps.
153:36He was over, he was over 60% of the snaps in every game.
153:40He was over, he was mostly in the seventies and sometimes in the eighties and every game other than weeks two and three week one, he played 64%.
153:47This is, I don't have routes easily on his game log from 2021, but so I'm going at snaps, but by week
153:53four, he had played 72% in week four and he had a 70 yard game in week four.
153:58And then he played 70%, 78%, 62, 73, 61, 85, 98.
154:01And then he started hitting. And while he was hitting, he, he had a game that was 75, 69, but there was
154:07a lot more that were in the 95, 88, 84, 95 range.
154:10He was mostly playing every snap at late in that season.
154:13But I mean, again, whatever. Like my, my only point of bringing up Aminra is not, I don't think anyone's game long
154:19is ever going to look like Aminra's again. I want to be very clear about that.
154:23This is a very unique rookie season. I'm not trying to pattern match.
154:27The only reason I'm bringing it up and he had more production earlier, the 70 yard game in week four, 65 yard game in week five.
154:34Then lemon has had or concepcion for that matter.
154:36He was actually doing some stuff. He was earning targets.
154:39He was doing some stuff. Having said that it is a reminder for me.
154:43His game log is always a reminder for me.
154:45When I think about these situations of, because what happened this year, I had him on a team with Sean and we got the team into the sprint.
154:53And after the first couple of games, we had 10 plus targets.
154:56Sean wanted to put them in our lineup over our, one of our early draft picks, which was Terry McLaurin.
155:01I think we took a corn in the third round.
155:04And it's the year that me and Sean both kind of developed a little bit of a hatred for Terry McLaurin.
155:09Cause we paid up for Terry McLaurin and this team was awesome.
155:13And he couldn't do anything all year for us.
155:15And I made the case during the sprint. If we were going to win the thing, we were going to win it through our third round pick.
155:22We needed to play McLaurin over Aminra. And he was like, dude, two straight 12 target games, two straight great games.
155:28We need to play Aminra. We did not. We ended up playing Aminra.
155:32The back two games of the sprint, but he had already had two good games.
155:36We didn't play him in that first game of the sprint.
155:38Aminra had a great game, eight for 90 in a touchdown.
155:41Terry McLaurin did nothing. And it was a really big bummer.
155:44Cause we had this discussion over the starting lineup spot with a really good team in the first week of the sprint to lose all those points.
155:52And I didn't understand how quickly a guy could go from being what he was all year.
155:56When I was writing stealing signals all year, I was saying, he's just not really doing anything.
156:01He's just catching a few balls. He's doing a couple of little things.
156:04He's not really doing anything. He's not really doing enough for me.
156:08He's playing quite a lot. He's not doing enough to suddenly being the focal point of the entire offense in a three and 13 loss season.
156:14Now, to your point, the lions were a fun team at Jared golf.
156:18Maybe the Eagles offense can't get there. I guess I may be too optimistic in Tanner McKee and there's an uncertainty there for me.
156:24I guess I don't, I'm not uncertain with Deshaun Watson.
156:27I feel pretty confident that Deshaun Watson is not going to be good enough for Concepcion, but that's a interesting.
156:32I'll just say the numbers. So high Q three for me for Concepcion.
156:36I mean, the point that I was, I was trying to make was just, even though I think he's better than a
156:42lot of the guys that we talked about at the beginning, I'm throwing more of them into tier two.
156:47Cause there's more uncertainty because there's more upside because there's that untapped element where there were just starting to see the rise.
156:53Sadiq to me would be like, honestly, probably a Q four back in Q three, Q four guy for redraft.
156:58It's just like, especially with Cooper, especially with Cooper hitting.
157:01Cause I mean, now there's like, they were already being ridiculous with this usage, but now there's like less incentive to make
157:07him a featured part of the passing game. Because they have another exciting rookie that they can feature.
157:12So we're talking about like, you don't think there's anything like health related and like, like he's still there mid first round
157:18pick that they will want to go back to him late in the rookie season.
157:22I feel like, I think they'll want to go back to him and extend, but like, but, but now it's like Gary Wilson.
157:28He's also shown, he's shown skills. He has. Yeah.
157:30I mean, but Gary Wilson's a superstar. Omar Cooper's around one.
157:33Rookie was an easier to fit role who now looks like potentially a stud.
157:37Yep. Maybe Mitchell's a decent target earner. So it's like, I guess it's just, it's becoming a parlay now where I need Sadiq to get the routes.
157:44And I need him to then find a way to produce.
157:47And what's become kind of a crowded offense. That's also not that good of an offense.
157:51And it's an offense that like their preference would be to just run at 50 times if, if they can.
157:57So I just think it's a, so that's Q4.
157:59That's a little bit more of a, you're saying it's a flyer.
158:02And that's, that makes sense. Yeah. Like in a shallow, in like a shallow Yahoo league, I would probably be cutting him.
158:08Even if I don't want to. It doesn't feel great.
158:11Handcuffs. So we didn't talk about the handcuffs yet, but Emmett Johnson, Mike Washington, Seth McGowan.
158:15Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Rapid fire. Like Emmett.
158:18I mean, I guess he's like almost definitionally Q3 in the sense that you can never start him without an injury, but
158:24he would be like the first pick of Q3.
158:26Like, yeah, he's, I think he's, I think he's, yeah.
158:29I was going to say late Q2. You, you defined the quarter.
158:32So if, if it's acceptable to put him at Q2, then I'll put him at Q2.
158:37I mean, I think he's the best hand. I think you take the really good handcuffs at late Q2 sometimes.
158:42I mean, in drafts for sure. I'm in on that.
158:45I'll, I'll say Washington. We always make that argument in draft season.
158:48You can take your upside running backs before you're like early season starters.
158:51Right. And that, that happens. I, this is a great running game.
158:55He's a, we think he's a really good prospect.
158:57We think he has a number two job lockdown.
158:59I think you could say he's a round eight pick that should be late Q2.
159:03That's, that's totally fair. Uh, Washington would be, I'll, I'll say, I'll say late Q2, because I, I guess like, I just,
159:09it's, it's getting harder and harder for me. I mean, I'll, we don't, we're not going to have like the time to have a big discussion about Jenty.
159:17Maybe we will in a later episode. I'm probably more on the side of his struggles are health related than his struggles
159:23are skill related, but I could be wrong. You had some good notes on in your take column.
159:28So go, people can go check that out for sure.
159:30You had some good notes on. I mean, yeah, what I would mostly say is like, if you're, if maybe it is
159:36skill related and I'm wrong, but even if we accept my premise that it's, that most of Jenty's struggles are health related,
159:42like, I guess I'd just be surprised if it's like, he just keeps playing every week.
159:46And then all of a sudden, bang, he looks healthy and great again.
159:50Like I feel like either he's going to need time off to actually rest or he's just going to keep playing inefficiently.
159:56And then he's going to lose Mike work to Mike Washington.
159:59Like, so kind of either way, that would be a win for Mike Washington.
160:03I think of all of the running backs, like Jenty is probably the most likely to have to miss time right now
160:08of starters because he's playing through multiple. Okay. This is not rapid fire though.
160:12Emma Johnson or Mike Washington. Who are you taking?
160:15Emma Johnson or Mike Washington. I'd take Mike Washington.
160:17You would rather roster him. So he's a clear Q2 guy.
160:20I think I'm taking Emma Johnson still. I just think he's a better player.
160:24And I think there's a higher ceiling. Seth McGowan.
160:26Where, where are you rapid firing him? Q3, but like a priority Q3 guy.
160:30Cause you have the chance of injury. You have the chance of shutdown.
160:33You have the chance of trade. Yep. Deeper guys, Josh Cameron, Ted Hurst, Cyrus Allen, any of the Miami guys, Zachariah Branch,
160:39any of those hit Q3 for you? Uh, those guys kind of feel like flyers to me.
160:44Maybe not, but I'll just, I'll just say that if my favorite one of the group would be Josh Cameron.
160:49Okay, good. I was going to say we, we, I wish we had more time for a longer discussion on him.
160:55Cause you, but we were pretty into Hunter this week.
160:58I think part of Hunter's like issue is that Josh Cameron actually played a season high snaps and routes.
161:03You had said in one of our waiver discussions, he's doing some of the dirty work for them.
161:08And I was looking at that. He hasn't run a ton of routes, but he has had some receiving production for them.
161:14I actually think I was like, I guess I hadn't thought of him that way.
161:18I haven't watched the games. I felt like they've, and they've used him in the red zone.
161:22Some like they'd seem to like him in certain like packages in close for like, he's had a couple of touchdown catches.
161:28He's had some other targets in there. So Cameron would have been one of my favorites as well.
161:33Ted Hearst, I think is also still intriguing enough.
161:35Cause Ibuka looks terrible. Yeah. Why are they splitting Ted Hearst routes with Ted Johnson?
161:39It's really weird. That's weird. But I, I, I was like, I've been moving Ted Hearst down based on that.
161:45And then reading your signals last night, got me like a little bit back excited about Ted Hearst.
161:50Cause I was like, right. Like they do need juice in this offense.
161:53And he's the only guy. They're like, they're using him late in games.
161:56Still. It's weird. Like they, they think he's their go-to guy in some of these big spots.
162:01That they've been in. And yet they aren't. The only guy who can catch a 20 yard pass.
162:06I know, but they, they've been cutting his rap routes to it.
162:09It's very weird. Any, uh, last minute thoughts. We do have to go.
162:13Uh, no, uh, thanks a ton for your patience and listen to this, uh, episode that we tried really hard to make
162:19short, but was two hours and 41 minutes anyways.
162:21And, uh, yeah, I was absolutely last. So, uh, this was fun and we'll see you guys next week.
162:26Yeah. Enjoy your concert, Jacob. Thanks for listening guys.
162:28Bye. Bye.