NFL Director of Analytics Ryan Paganetti! Shares In-Depth Fantasy Football Tips for 2026!
STACKED extracted the fantasy-relevant player signal from this video and kept the full transcript here for context.
1 hr 10 min
Duration
Estimated from transcript
Jul 11, 2026
Published
Sat, July 11, 2026
18
Player insights
9
Players mentioned
Topics
Carson WentzNick FolesTom BradyKeenan AllenMark AndrewsZach ErtzJosh AllenPuka NacuaTrevor Lawrence
Player analysis
Player insights
Carson Wentz
PositiveRole0:16
Carson Wentz was a bigger guy and a strength of the Eagles' quarterback sneak strategy in 2017, contributing to their fourth-down conversion success that built coaching confidence.
Insight pageNegativeInjury0:23
Carson Wentz went down during the season when he was an MVP front-runner, causing the Eagles' odds to win the Super Bowl to tank in the markets as people believed they couldn't win with Nick Foles.
Insight pagePositiveRole16:16
Wentz's physical attributes—being a bigger quarterback—were a strength for executing quarterback sneak plays; the Eagles invested in offensive line support around him, enabling successful sneak conversion and fourth-down conversion strategy in 2017. Wentz was an MVP frontrunner before his injury during the Eagles' Super Bowl run. His absence caused the team's Super Bowl odds to tank significantly in the markets, with widespread belief that the Eagles could not win without him.
Insight pageJosh Allen
PositiveRole0:42
Allen is cited as one of the brilliant offensive minds that defensive coordinators must prepare for, requiring high-speed processing to prevent him from scoring 30-40 points.
Insight pageKeenan Allen
PositiveUsage0:41
Keenan Allen would get really high volume target games when moved into the slot, with teams throwing him the ball 12 times a game if defenses didn't travel a top coverage player with him, indicating zone coverage.
Insight pagePositiveUsage41:09
Exemplifies high-volume target exploitation through slot positioning and zone coverage vulnerability; when moved into the slot against zone defenses without a top coverage player traveling with him, the offense would attack his matchups aggressively, generating 12+ target games by forcing interior defenders (safeties, linebackers) into coverage mismatches. Fantasy Points notes this as a repeatable offensive strategy over his career.
Insight pageMark Andrews
PositiveRole0:33
Mark Andrews took a snap in a push sneak alignment against the Browns and ran outside, exemplifying the evolution of short yardage strategies beyond traditional QB sneaks.
Insight pageNegativeRole33:38
Being used in short yardage and goal line situations running outside plays from push sneak alignments; the Ravens and other teams are implementing tight end motion strategies where tight ends line up in tight end alignment and come screaming across the formation at full speed pre-snap to kick out defenders, a physics-based strategy that creates leverage advantages on short yardage plays.
Insight pageNick Foles
PositiveRole0:18
Nick Foles was involved in communication with head coach Doug Peterson on the headset during the Super Bowl LII game, including the famous Philly Special play call.
Insight pagePositiveRole0:21
Nick Foles was the quarterback executing critical plays in the Super Bowl, including a successful sneak conversion on fourth and one that led to a touchdown drive, demonstrating his capability in high-pressure moments.
Insight pagePositiveRole0:26
Nick Foles excelled in shotgun play action and shotgun RPOs, metrics the Eagles coaching staff identified as his strengths to lean on after he took over for Carson Wentz, drawing from his successful 27-2 season under Chip Kelly.
Insight pagePuka Nacua
PositiveUsage0:34
Puka Nacua scored a 45-50 yard touchdown on a jet sweep play in short yardage, demonstrating the effectiveness of the Rams' McVay-tree jet sweep strategy as a complement to inside-focused defensive allocations.
Insight pageTom Brady
PositiveProjection0:20
Tom Brady accumulated over 400 passing yards in the Super Bowl while the Patriots did not punt the entire game, demonstrating sustained offensive efficiency throughout the contest.
Insight pagePositiveUsage0:31
Tom Brady historically benefited from QB sneak opportunities where defensive tackles were shaded one way, allowing him to check in and go the other way, but teams have since become too smart to give up these easy conversions.
Insight pageNegativeRole15:56
Historical reference for quarterback sneak strategy evolution; Brady exemplified the old-school approach of checking plays and sneaking to open gaps, contrasting with the modern data-driven strategy of running sneaks regardless of defensive front alignment. Context for Super Bowl game situation and strategic decision-making; Paganetti notes that in the early fourth quarter, Tom Brady had accumulated approximately 400 passing yards with the Patriots recording over 500 total yards and no punts in the entire game, which influenced the Eagles' decision to be more aggressive on offense when they got the ball back while trailing 32-33.
Insight pageTrevor Lawrence
PositiveRole0:45
The Jaguars made a massive investment in Lawrence and the coaching search emphasized maximizing him and getting the most out of him, particularly as he had not yet started his five-year extension.
Insight pageZach Ertz
PositiveRole0:22
Zach Ertz was the target on a critical fourth and one mesh route play in the Super Bowl that resulted in a touchdown drive, highlighting his importance in clutch offensive situations.
Insight pagePositiveRole37:37
Key target in critical Super Bowl LII scoring drive; Paganetti describes a fourth-and-one conversion play in the fourth quarter where the Eagles ran a mesh route and hit Ertz, leading to a touchdown drive that was crucial in the game's outcome.
Insight pageFull transcript
Episode Transcript
0:00Ladies and gentlemen, you are listening to the School of Scott podcast. I'm your host, Scott Barrett. Uh, and we have a
0:08very special guest. This is, you know, maybe the most excited I've ever been to do a podcast. We have Brian Paganetti,
0:16who is formerly the director of football analytics for the Jacksonville Jaguars.
0:22Uh, last year he he spent some time with the Raiders. Before that, he was a coach and analyst with the Super Bowl winning
0:30Eagles. And that's that's kind of underelling it a little bit.
0:42>> Ryan, welcome to the School of Scout podcast.
0:45>> I I really appreciate it. Um, you know, we've talked briefly in the past, long been a follower of uh your work, just
0:53seeing it pop up on Twitter when you'd come up with these obscure list, you know, identifying the reason why JJ Argo
1:01Whiteside's not a good player and different things like that based off their college careers. I I've always appreciated the uh the um unique list
1:08and it kind of caught my eye. And then, you know, more recently, I've kept an eye on fantasy, you know, what what you
1:14guys are doing here with Fantasy Points and and um I'm really excited. It's it's really impressive stuff and um you know,
1:21it's it's cool to be a part of this.
1:23>> Yeah, thanks for saying that. And it's it's really cool you would even come on just because so many, you know, people,
1:29you know, look down on fantasy like it's like lesser than or it's not to be taken seriously. But I'll always defend it.
1:34Like I think you know the fantasy the guys who are really good at it and like into the weeds of of analytics like they
1:41they're they have a you know an important voice and they're like bringing information to the forefront that that needs to be heard and you know
1:49sometimes maybe even NFL teams aren't on.
1:52>> Yeah. What what I would say is um you know there's very tight restrictions on team employees playing fantasy and it
2:00was very frustrating to me. I think you can only win like a hundred or $150 max in a year. And I am definitely a
2:09diehard fantasy guy going back like I have a fantasy league with with some friends for the last like 15 plus years
2:16and I used to actually make a physical big board for the draft and everyone had to go walk up and and write their pick
2:23in and everyone was kind of going crazy and we had a lot of fun with that. But I um it actually it definitely the the
2:30fantasy world was part of kind of my inspiration to get into the league just because I was definitely going to be
2:36like a numbersheavy type person. I went to Dartmouth for uh economics for college and um just really anything quantitative and valuations and stuff.
2:44And that that's kind of a world where in my fantasy league era back before I got into the NFL, I'd be sitting there
2:50thinking like, okay, on a macro level with our league rules and um you know the other guys in my league, should I be
2:58drafting re uh receivers before them or should I be take should I be waiting until the 10th round for a quarterback?
3:03And um just kind of thinking in that sort of mindset was always something that I was doing and and even in by the
3:10same kind of principles. Those are sort of the the ways that I would operate you know in the NFL in terms of like with
3:16limited resources like what's the best use of of of time? What's the best use of or budget for this department or you
3:24know these employees that are working for me like what's what's the best options to really kind of generate yield? And um that that's kind of how I
3:31uh sort of aligned myself.
3:34>> Yeah, it's it's very similar. It's like similar to like any board game or chess where you're trying to optimize and you
3:41know, especially in salary cap football, you you have a set of resources and you're trying to maximize those and give yourself the biggest edge possible,
3:50which is generally just like a bunch of micro edges. So, I I I can definitely see how, you know, the the process can
3:59be very similar and and maybe it's not too surprising that that's really how you got your start. Um, and then you
4:06went to Dartmouth. How do you get from Dartmouth to the Eagles and then the Jaguars and the Raiders?
4:13>> So, actually, um, I I have an older brother. He's actually run game coordinator with the Saints. um we spent a few years together with the Eagles
4:21together, but my older brother um he went to University of Oregon for undergraduate and his first year there
4:32was actually the same year that Chip Kelly started as the offensive coordinator at Oregon and he actually volunteered to just basically help out
4:38Chip and do whatever to participate with the program. And just right off the bat, Chip was killing it at Oregon. This is
4:45his first two years at OC. um as OC there and then he took over as the head coach for four years. My brother was
4:51actually like if you'd watch an Oregon game when they were humming up and down the field ripping out crazy amounts of
4:56plays, my brother was the guy signaling the plays like making all these uh you know crazy signals on the sideline directly next to him. Um and you know it
5:05was super cool to see him doing that all the way up into the national championship. you know, unfortunately they lost to Auburn by three, but um
5:12when Chip got his opportunity into the league, I was still in school, but you know, that connection was really valuable and I really was just trying to
5:18get my foot in the door. So, I reached out to just, you know, every team that I could and um you know, Chip was very
5:24receptive to the idea like once I graduated that I could, you know, get my start there. And and I really am
5:30thankful for my brother. He he wouldn't have given me that opportunity if my brother wasn't doing a great job and and
5:35working super hard for him. So, um, kind of got my foot in the door there. It was chips last year at or, uh, at Philly.
5:41Didn't didn't go exactly as planned. Um, you know, I my attitude there was like, okay, I just got in. A lot of times when
5:49the head coach loses their job, you know, everyone sort of is scrambling and and and it's really tough to keep your
5:55job. But when Doug Peterson got there, my attitude with him was, I'll do whatever it takes to to help this organization win. like I I'll if you
6:03want me to be a scout, you want me to be a coach, you want me to do numbers things, like I'm I'm just trying to work
6:07in the NFL like you want me to fill up water bottles, sounds good. Um and there was like a period of time there where
6:12like I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to survive and um I'll actually, you know, they were just sort of uh
6:19going through like a transition with the front office and people were losing jobs and whatnot. I actually um I was like
6:25was like, "Hey, Howie, I'll I'll drive people to the airport. I'll pick people up at the airport. Whatever I got to
6:30do." So, like when they actually brought in Carson Wentz for a top 30 visit, I was like picking him up at the airport
6:36and I'm like at any moment I'm like, am I going to lose my job? And but I just my attitude was like, hey, you know,
6:40whatever. I'm not a loyalist to anyone.
6:42Whatever I can do to kind of survive and um this sort of role sort of developed for me with Doug where Andy Reid had had
6:51this guy named Mike Frasier that was helping him out. He's his title is like statistical coordinator. He's been with Andy for 20 plus years. And Doug was
6:59kind of looking for sort of a coach analytics hybrid who was his version of that and just based on my qualifications
7:07and I I had over there we actually had kept a lot of the coaches from the previous year. So I um whether that was
7:13Jeff Stelton or Duce Staley or Dave Fipp and a lot of those coaches sort of advocated on my behalf with Doug and he
7:20had a uh he had a great attitude about you know trying to use numbers and um I actually I tell people that part of the
7:28reason that he bought in was because he was a new head coach in the sense that a lot at the time a lot of these veteran
7:35head coaches were fairly resistant to data driven strategies. They're like, "What do what do you mean you go for two down eight? Like fourth and one, you're
7:43at the 50? Like that's crazy. Like you don't give him a short field." And he he was totally receptive and he wasn't
7:49really kind of a victim of success in in that regard. And um and I also think you know Jeffrey Lur had a I don't think I
7:58know Jeffrey Lur's attitude was this organization's going to use analytics for as many decisions as possible. And that sort of guiding principle for the
8:07organization was it made my job a lot easier because I wasn't I wasn't fighting the same battles that that analysts are fighting in other
8:15buildings. Um when when you know that the the person that kind of writes the paychecks for everybody values the work that you're doing and thinks it's
8:21important. So um that's kind of how I got my start. And um I you know I was I was the guy doing the game management in
8:31the booth for Doug. So, you basically communicating fourth downs, timeouts, like let's go up tempo here, let's let's accept or decline this penalty, you
8:41know, let's really anything in that sort of realm. And uh we kind of got a lot of attention for it during the Super Bowl
8:48year. And um there's a lot of people around the league that reach out to me over time and have sort of brought up
8:53that they they sort of look at that year as sort of a pinnacle moment for when people actually started believing in in
9:00analytics at least in front offices because there was like an actual example of a team winning a Super Bowl utilizing them. Um, and you know, from there I've
9:10I've I've really enjoyed my experience and I've I've bounced around in a couple different places and now I'm here on the
9:15on the internet and and we're we're gonna see how it goes. I have to say you're you're doing a great job. You are
9:21you're killing it on Twitter uh dropping tons of really cool interesting tidbits, stats. Um, you know, it's a great look for anyone, you know, behind the curtain
9:32on how an NFL director of analytics thinks. I want to circle back to your time with the Eagles when they won the
9:40Super Bowl in 2018. I think you're kind of underelling just how you you kind of revolutionized the game of football in a way like on par with
9:49maybe you know many like of the best players. Um because like at that time like yeah, no one was ever going for it
9:57and um you I guess were kind of spearheading that realization that teams need to go for it on fourth down way
10:06more than they were and you really put the pedal to the metal with that when you know even like the most aggressive
10:14teams were still like far behind you.
10:16And then of course, you know, the the famous fourth down Philly Philly play call in the Super Bowl that year. Um, so
10:23yeah, like what what what led you to the the confidence to just really buck the trend uh you know, way more than anyone
10:31else is doing? Obviously, I guess Doug Peterson had to be a believer in addition to Jeff Lori.
10:37>> Yeah. So, what I would say is there was um so Doug had this that was our second year together that we won the Super
10:46Bowl, but that first year there was definitely a feeling out process and and quite frankly my attitude was I'm trying to survive and
10:54if I come out and I'm aggressive with all these coaches saying like you need to be doing this, we're messed up doing
10:59this, we should be doing this, I didn't necessarily think that that was exactly my role. I I did my best to kind of
11:06nudge things towards using data, but we went seven and nine that first year and there was it was it's funny how in
11:14Philly seven and nine is a disaster and the coach on the hot seat like um and that you're you're you're dealing with
11:22that 24/7, you know, the fans want to, you know, burn the building down and everything. So, uh that off season after
11:30my first year, I had really developed a comfort level with Doug. I had really developed a comfort level with a number
11:36of the coaches and um almost in a sense of survival, there was edges I knew that we could exploit and I really kind of
11:47spent that off season doing all that I could to to sort of sell Doug and sell some of these other coaches on what I
11:55perceived as really just obvious advantages. And then I would say if there was a secret sauce to kind of getting it done is I was very good at
12:06framing things kind of like a a catcher would do with like a a a pitch outside the zone and you know like for example I
12:14would say things like it's say it's fourth and two at the plus 40 yard line I you know and analytic says go for it. Well, the way I would
12:23frame it to to the coaches would be even if you think we're the worst team in NFL history, it still says go for it. And
12:30all of a sudden they're like, really?
12:32Like and and or if I was like dealing with defensive coaches, I'm like, hey, if we go for fourth and two at the plus
12:38four, you get a you get a 96 yard field to defend if we don't get it.
12:43>> And all a sudden they're like, hey, actually that that sounds kind of that kind of sounds good. or um you know that
12:48that sort of attitude was um I think kind of almost hilariously was effective in nudging things. And that being said, a lot of coaches were at the are very
12:59much prisoners to success or failure. So my attitude with it was if I'm going to say this to do some of this stuff and no
13:08one's really ever done this, it really has to work. [laughter] And um whatever I could do to sort of control that I was
13:16going to do. So so part of the reason I say that is um you know I grew up in Massachusetts. I went to I don't know
13:23probably 20 30 Patriots games. That was also really kind of a key inspiration for me to get into the league was just
13:29witnessing what um you know what the Patriots were doing for so long and how they seem to be ahead of people in so
13:36many different strategic strategies. But one area that just I could not wrap my head around but that other teams were not copying was the whole quarterback
13:44sneak situation. And forever New England was so far ahead of every other team when it came to quarterback sneaks. It it really kind of defied any sort of
13:54logic. And my sort of view on the topic was like I'm going to figure out why we're not doing I think we ran Philly we
14:02ran two quarterback sneaks in 2016. My attitude was like, I'm gonna figure out exactly what the bottlenecks are. Why are we not doing this? You know, what's
14:10the rationale of the coaches and what does the data say? Like if we need to manually compile data, we'll manually compile data. And I spent a bunch of a
14:18bunch of time on that really kind of over several months like manually charting exact distances to go every front at the time. Uh, you know,
14:26classifying every injury to quarterbacks because that was that was a little bit of a push back situation, too. Um, and really the main takeaway
14:36from doing all that research was not only should we be copying the Patriots, but we should be going way beyond that.
14:43And I think that was a little bit of a missed opportunity for New England over time in the sense that their conversion
14:51rate was so shockingly high on quarterback sneaks. It actually suggests they should be running more quarterback sneaks than their than they even even
14:59their league leading level because they realistically you should be failing some of the time because your your ulterior option on a third and one might be might
15:09work 70% of the time. So if you're upset that your quarterback's knee conversion rate is only 94%. Like what are you
15:16doing? So it really I think the main takeaway from 2016 I I want to say there was roughly 68 maybe 70 sneaks in the
15:25entire league in 2016 and the main takeaway in that after that season in the offseason was we don't care what front you're in. if
15:34if it's a if it's a one-yard to go situation, we're gonna just run we're going to run this play and we're going
15:40to have a way to block it up. There was some evidence of different teams against these so-called unfavorable looks to run
15:46quarterback sneaks and there was over say a decade time frame, even against the unfavorable looks, it still was clearly the best play. You know, it used
15:56to be in the old days like the only time teams would run sneaks is if there was one open a gap and it's like the Tom
16:02Brady. He just checks the play and he sneaks to that side. And really kind of our strategy was we don't care if
16:08there's two guys in the A gaps. We don't care if there's three, you know, there's a head-up nose and two guys in the A's.
16:12Like we're going to run this play, everyone's going to wedge down and we're just going to do this. And um I felt
16:18that tied in with the fourth down strategy significantly because there was a number of fourth downs early on in that 2017 season where we got to
16:28fourth and one. We just jammed it forward and we got it. It was it was also I'd say a strength of Carson Wentz.
16:34He was a bigger guy. The team invested in the offensive line. We had Jason Kelsey who's kind of the sneak legend.
16:41You know, he goes on on his New Heights podcast and talks about it 247. But um we we started to have success. So not
16:49only were we converting on sneaks, but we were converting on fourth downs. And that really built up the confidence of Doug Peterson and all the other coaches,
16:57you know, because it was meaningfully impacting wins. And um we also I think we just in a sort of a somewhat unlikely scenario, we were just
17:08disproportionately scoring touchdowns on drives after we had converted fourth downs. And that that like was not going to be sustainable. But for that period
17:16of time in like the early 2017 season that like further convinced the coaches and there was there was articles and media kind of written about what we were
17:25doing and we really just kind of rolled with it and that sort of became our identity and um you know we got all the way down to the
17:34Super Bowl and at that time there there definitely was there had been articles and what written written about a little bit of what my
17:42role was at least you know helping out during the games And when we got to the Philly special play, I first of all, I
17:50was kind of not happy because we called a play and then we actually it was sort of disorganized for whatever reason and
17:58we had to blow a timeout. So at the time I was thinking like, okay, well worst case we go for this fourth down and we
18:05don't get it. There's actually like a plausible path where we just tackle them three times and maybe they have to punt
18:11and we can we can try to kick a long field goal with a few seconds left. But by using a timeout and we only had two
18:18timeouts left, if we failed on that play, they could basically just nail it three times and and we wouldn't been we
18:24would not have been able to stop the clock.
18:25>> Oh wow.
18:26>> Anyway, so I'm up upstairs on the headset. Like it was um Doug never wavered like he was going for that play like he was just going to go
18:35for it. He and and I totally respect his attitude there, but nobody upstairs could hear what was transpiring between
18:44Nick Fos and Doug on the headset because like Doug the head coach has a button where like you know they press a button
18:50and everybody on the on the offensive line can hear what he's saying. That button was not pressed so we didn't know
18:55what the hell was going on. And you know, at some point, one of the coaches brings up as they're running out into
19:02the field and it's like, "Coach, what'd you call it?" And he said, "Philly special." And we're all just thinking like, we just called a a trick play on fourth
19:11down in the Super Bowl. And it really wasn't even like the most obvious goal for a fourth opportunity. It was like a
19:18somewhat of a marginal win. Now that that scenario coming up in the first quarter is a much larger win because of
19:25the field position considerations, but um certainly wouldn't have been the end of the world if we had not gone for it.
19:32And at the time once he called that play all you know part of if they if I had had a Whoop head a Whoop uh you know
19:40band on my heart rate like it was it was things were were all over the place man because um just just really everything
19:49sort of you get like adrenaline pumping and everything was sort of in slow motion and and um the play worked out
19:55and everybody was happy and all that but uh totally at really it was I I put that at probably a 50 to 55% proposition when
20:05we called that play that that thing was going to work and I guess the rest is sort of history there. Um maybe maybe
20:12the more interesting play that came up in that Super Bowl was that on um in the fourth quarter
20:22and this is like a scenario where I sort of I had a I had a chart with like 500,000 situations to go off of. But
20:31that the way New England played on offense in that Super Bowl was unbelievable. They did not punt in the entire game. And I'm sitting there and
20:40there's like a graphic that pops up on the screen because I'm upstairs. I can see it. You get access to a TV copy so
20:46you can like look for replays and whatnot. And so I'm like staring at the TV copy and they put a graphic on the
20:50screen and it's like in the early fourth quarter. Tom Brady has like 400 something passing yards. The Patriots have over 500 yards
20:59>> and and no punts. And I'm thinking about this like we got the ball back losing. I think it was 32 to 33. And I I think I
21:07at some point I said I was like just so everyone knows they have not punted the whole game. They have 500 plus yards. So
21:13like we probably even want to be more aggressive than than you even might think. So we got to a third and one and
21:20I think it was probably around the 42 yard line, our own 42 yard line with maybe 6 minutes left. And I had been in
21:26Doug Peterson's ear all week that if we got presented a third one situation, we had been so good at sneaks, we really
21:34should just have the attitude, we're sneaking two times to get it. And I'm like, I would put it probably near 100%
21:41that we just from the surge of our offensive line and and and Nick Fos at the time, you know, I would put it
21:48between those two things like we we're we're probably going to get we're going to convert it. And sure enough, he he
21:54was like kind of not not on board with it. He's like, I don't know, whatever.
21:58And sure enough, he calls it. It's it's third and one critical moment of the Super Bowl. He calls a pass. Nick Fos
22:06very nearly gets sacked for a five or six yard loss. Like he gets hit and and the ball almost comes. He almost
22:13fumbles. Um, and once he called that pass, I I got onto the headset and I said something along the lines of even
22:23if we lose five or six yards, we still should go for it. Now, thankfully that did not end up transpiring, but we were
22:33we I think you would have gone. So, say in that scenario, it's fourth and six with like 6 minutes left on our own 37
22:39yardd line. we probably would have gone for it. And that would have been the most controversial fourth down probably in NFL history if that came up. I'm
22:48happy it didn't because because quite honestly, we would have been certainly less than 50% to convert it, but um you know, we converted the next play. It was
22:57a fourth and one. We ran like a mesh route and hit Zack Z and we went down the field and scored. and um couple uh
23:04you know there was other a few other interesting moments that sort of came up there at the in that game. But um
23:11yeah, it was it was a really a cool moment. You know, my brother was on the staff, so it was really cool moment for
23:16my family. You know, we got we got to win a Super Bowl like with two brothers doing it together and and um kind of a
23:23special moment for everybody and um it was a great moment for Philadelphia. The parade was the coolest thing ever. I I
23:31don't even know how many people were there. It was it was an absurd amount.
23:34It wasn't one of those fake parades where they they embellished the amount of people that were there. Like there there was a lot of people there. And um
23:42you know from that moment on you look at so many different metrics in the league where that are sort of analytics
23:47friendly whether it's fourth downs, two-point conversions, quarterback sneaks, play action. a lot of those numbers, it sort of kind of looks like
23:56an AI stock, like the memory stocks right now, like where they just really started picking up after decades of of of no movement. And um it's been
24:06exciting to to be in the NFL and and be a part of it, but it's harder now to get clear edges because the easy ones are
24:16gone. Like everybody's going for fourth to one now. Everyone's going for fourth.
24:19It's not even a controver It's now controversial if you don't go for fourth and one, which is very interesting to think about, you know, in an 8-year time
24:26frame for that to happen.
24:29>> Well, yeah. So, I just want to circle back real quick that you revealed to the listeners that you're the coolest person
24:35I've ever talked to. You were on the headset in the Super Bowl and not just any Super Bowl, but like maybe the most
24:43magical Super Bowl. Like there was what, like a thousand total yards from scrimmage in that game. like, >> yeah, it was definitely record-breaking.
24:50Um, and go ahead. Go ahead.
24:53>> I was going to say, yeah, what were the vibes after Carson Wentz went down because he was like the super the the
24:59MVP front runner?
25:01>> So, um, not good. I think, you know, I I this isn't controversial, but I would keep track of the spread and odds to win
25:11games and whatnot to help our team, you know, and so we would have tools where we'd factor in the spread in in decision
25:19models or like say we were a significant favorite, you know, we would we would play faster in the game to try to get
25:24more snaps to kind of reduce variance.
25:26If we were an underdog, we would try to slow things down a little bit. Um, but once that happened, like our odds to win
25:34the Super Bowl in the markets just tanked. Like no one people were like they they can't win with Nick Fos.
25:41>> And we actually had and this is the most Philly thing ever is we had a Monday night football game. I think it was
25:48against it was against the Raiders and this is one of Nick Fo's first starts and we were struggling a little bit on
25:55offense. like this was a significant change to happen so late in the year and um the fans we I think we were like some
26:04we were like 12 and two or something and the fans in in the in uh uh Philly were booing us like crazy and that it's just
26:11the peak Philly thing it's like look at look at the record this is this is wild guys you guys come on like I I respect
26:18their passion and like I love the Philly fans but like they sometimes they kind of drag the team down a little bit with
26:24the with the negativity and if you say that to them, they'll say, "Just deal with it. It's it's part of what makes us
26:28great or whatever." And um you know, at one point it it was looking like we were going to have a real tough chance to to win the
26:37Super Bowl, but we had a good record, so we got the first round buy. And >> one thing that I I did in that time
26:44frame is the offensive coaches were asking me, they said, "Can you go through Nick's entire career and identify any metrics that he really
26:53stands out for being strong in?"
26:56>> You know, we're going to try to really lean on, you know, what is he good at?
27:00Because it was definitely a different player than WZ.
27:05And the messaging was shotgun play action, shotgun RPOS's. He was
27:15excellent. And part of that was from Chip's years in in Philly when when he when Nick had that unbelievable season when he whatever it was 27-2 and really
27:25the whole entire offense that year was out of out of gun and Nick seemed very comfortable with it with the RPOS's with
27:30play action shots and whatnot. And um there was great reception with the coaching staff to really kind of study what Nick has succeeded in over the
27:41course of his previous few years and and sort of lean into that more in the Super Bowl. Um I think in the Super Bowl
27:48ultimately we ran something like nine mesh plays which had been really the staple of pre a previous coaching staff's kind of scheme. But it there was
27:58a a great openness to not just like say this is our scheme, this is what we do, but like find out what works for Nick.
28:06And um I really just as like an example of how I sort of used the the the markets in terms of helping our staff is I was
28:16basically forecasting the probability that we would play each respective opponent. So when we were when we're when you're the one seed, you could play
28:25several different teams. So based on their individual win probabilities, you know, you could basically just map out the likelihood of what team you would
28:34play. And then as a result, so when we're in the by-week, we were allocating our time on a percentagebased standpoint based on what would what so like if
28:46there was a 37% chance we were going to play the Atlanta Falcons, we were spending roughly 37% exactly that. I don't think people were
28:53doing that, but like sort of roughly allocating time in a way that that we were doing that I think that helped out
29:00a lot and it it allowed us to sort of get ahead. So, um you know, while that team that is coming off of a playoff
29:07game, you know, is they just had a tough game, they're just starting their next game plan process, like we had already
29:13done a ton of preparation for whatever team we were going to play and it ended up being the Falcons. Um, but that's
29:20sort of just like an example of utilizing the data and utilizing the public information to kind of capitalize on some things.
29:28>> Yeah. Really driving like a million decisions. It seems like for the Eagles at at a time when, you know, not too
29:35many teams were um like you said, the the edge is is is different today. It's um you know, the easy wins aren't really
29:43there. Although I will say I think we did see a a new efficiency hack really take the league by storm and that was
29:53defenses going heavy getting matched by base and then throwing all over them. Uh notably the Rams and the Seahawks. Um
30:03but yeah, so I for the for the listeners at home the the podcast previous to this I had Brett Whitefield on and uh we
30:10talked about all the top play calling efficiency hacks in the NFL today. based on, you know, what our fiveyear sample of of playby-play data has and playing
30:19around with AI. And so on this Ryan, I talked about early down pass rate, under center dropbacks, play action, under
30:29center dropbacks with play action, the heavy personnel thing I just talked about during snap motion, QB sneak, the most efficient play call in the NFL, has
30:39an 81% success rate. Uh, and I know there's a few more beyond that. Is there, and I, and I know this isn't, you
30:46know, new to you. I know you, you've been on top of these all for a while.
30:49Uh, is there anyone you want to single out right now and talk about?
30:54I would say that um there's uh in the the QB sneak issue is very nuanced now because you really have to sort of uh
31:05over time the the percentage of QB sneaks that are were against an open A gap have plummeted. It used to be the
31:14vast majority of QB sneaks. It was like an over or under front and the DTackles shaded one way and the Tom Brady or your
31:21quarterback just checks in and goes the other way. Teams are way too smart where they're not giving you those ones anymore. And as because of that, it has
31:31absolutely brought the sneak conversion rates down. And there's now these two sort of worlds of do you sneak from relatively normal formations or do you
31:40just say f it and go with the the push sneak stuff. And you also have defensive coordinators basically really selling out on the
31:50interior stopping of the sneaks. And um it's you get other interesting nuances now. Some teams are sort of dedicating a full-time tight end to handling the
32:00sneaks or um some teams have put in a backup specifically for sneaks.
32:06And uh there these sort of two paths are are becoming interesting. You know, a year ago everybody was talking about banning the the the Tosh push and now
32:15people aren't talking about it as much.
32:17I think that it's it's going to be a narrative. Um again, I think part of the reason it wasn't a narrative is because
32:24Philly was so much worse on offense.
32:26they just faced way less short yardage situations >> um when they faced way less times they were down at the one yard line and and
32:34third and fourth and ones but they really were going for QB sneaks at a at a similar rate to what they were
32:39previously but the the sort of the argument is do you try to line up in a real formation and run a sneak or have
32:47some other play or do you just say we don't care what you're doing and we're just going to get line up and it's going
32:53to be a rugby fest in there And it's it's an interesting dynamic. I personally, if I was uh an offensive coordinator, I would be studying what
33:02Buffalo is doing because Buffalo is running as many sneaks as anybody now.
33:08You know, they're right up there with Philadelphia, but they do it largely out of real alignments. And so the the defense has to play a real defense. when
33:17you play Philly like you got guys like laying on the ground and and there people are just making things up trying
33:23to and but you also have like you basically have 11 people selling out to stop the play and um you know I think
33:29one narrative there is like the the the defensive line is getting better at sort of eliminating the the leverage advantage that Philly had. Philly would
33:38get really low. they'd be all in four-point stances and they would just almost snow plow forward. And some teams are doing a good job of really kind of
33:45matching or beating that leverage and going under them and then it's sort of just creating a a mosh pit and there's
33:52just nowhere nowhere to go. And and so I think the the where that's evolving is you now have people trying to come up
33:58with counters where they they run outside plays like the like Mark Andrews against the Browns where he took the snap and he and he he ran outside when
34:06it was in a sort of a push sneak alignment or you have the Rams will line up in short yardage and then they'll
34:13they'll run the a number of the of the Rams Shawn McVey tree guys have been implementing jet sweeps on short yardage
34:20and I think that's an interesting complement. event that sort of makes the uh it makes defensive coordinators sweat a little bit. They're like, "All right,
34:29we're really allocating to the inside, but I think Puka had like a 50 yard a 45 50 yard touchdown this year on one of
34:34those, but they're you're really allocating the inside and now you have a a fast player really wheeling to the outside and I know McVey did it in the
34:43Super Bowl too with uh with Cooper Cup, but um that whole world is very interesting just from a macro standpoint. Jet sweeps are very
34:52effective and um those predominantly come, you know, 95% of them come from under center and that's sort of added juice to the whole under center play
35:01action world where you get the guy in fast motion at the snap. Um, one world that we can probably talk for a while
35:10about is sort of differentiating between fast motion of receivers or fast motion of tight ends.
35:20And that's a lot of teams are implementing runs with fast motion of tight ends. And when I say fast, I mean
35:26like they're they're moving at a good clip prior to the snap and it's allowing them to to run sort of unique schemes
35:32that previously they wouldn't really be able to run because they don't have a player to their front side or backside accordingly. And you see um you see a
35:42number of teams are kind of implementing that. It's become sort of an interesting short yardage goal lineish type strategy where teams are in goal line personnel
35:50and they have a tight end come full speed across the formation pre- snap and just like destroy a guy kicking him out
35:56and it's really a basic physics problem where like he's moving at a fast speed and the def defender is essentially stationary before the snap. That's
36:03that's a whole interesting world and I've got >> this is go ahead.
36:06>> I just want to make sure I'm following.
36:08So, this is like how Mike McDaniel used Tyreek, but now you're doing it with a tight end who's just massive.
36:13>> It's like, think of it more like what the Ravens were doing with Ricard and um you know, I know he's like half tight
36:21end, half full, whatever you want to call him, >> but but there's there's bodies like that, but but but especially with tight
36:28ends and like they might start in a tight end alignment and just go from there and come screaming across the formation. like it's not they're not
36:36necessarily doing it from a wide alignment.
36:39Um, you know, in the McDaniel thing with Tyreek that was interesting is is the fast motion outwards. That was sort of
36:47like his interesting innovation from a couple years ago where I think they were calling it a burst motion or whatever.
36:54But that was that fast motion outwards on the same side was creating some weird thing it as as somebody who sat in five
37:04years of defensive game plan meetings.
37:06It it creates some weird problems because you weren't thinking about it.
37:10It's also just for like uh fans just uh it's it's actually quite complicated to practice
37:19as an offense because the the player going in in fast motion outwards can't see the snap occur and he's he can't
37:28hear the cadence and so you really have to time up like the steps accordingly like okay he does this many steps and
37:35then the ball snapped and he knows like okay I'm two steps outside of the most outside receiver and then I and start
37:40going up field. But it it it's an interesting strategy that creates some some weird dynamics. Um, one area that I think is
37:52it's it's it's a little bit complicated to measure at this time, you know, maybe maybe there's a world where uh it becomes more recognized or more
38:02simple to pick up on is some of these top play callers are moving a lot of pieces before the snap to gather a lot
38:09of information about you. So whether that's the simp most simple one is, you know, lining up a running back as the widest
38:18player and bringing him back in to the back field. A lot of defenses have caught on to that and they'll check into
38:24a different play when that happens. Um, other ones will be like lining up is probably the the the one that I'd say
38:32is is most interesting is lining up a tight end as the widest player to a side and particularly flexing him out and
38:39then having a skilled player like a receiver aligned inside of him. And that creates some dynamics where you have to sort of show your hand a little bit in
38:49terms of matching the uh matching pre- snap. A lot of teams are sort of countering that by playing even more zone. But if they're playing a lot of
38:57zone and you have, you know, JSN in the slot and some mediocre receiver or mediocre tight end split out wide,
39:07realistically, it should be an a really strong matchup for, you know, your elite receiver lined up inside that you almost certainly know they're playing zone and
39:17to kind of work a matchup accordingly there. So moving the players around and getting a beat on uh sort of what information that tells
39:26you and then calling the most according you know the the most appropriate play.
39:30You see a lot of these quarterbacks have these they're like yelling can can can which is like the the audible system or
39:37the kill kill system where there there there's multiple plays being called and based off of whatever pre- snap information you show them as a defense
39:46they're going to move from one thing to the other. Um and that's something Liam Con's doing a good job with. It's
39:52something Ben Johnson's doing a good job with. And it's really kind of a very open-ended world. And uh I think you're going to
40:00continue to see people try to solve that that time frame of the game. So like prior to the snap, knowing as much
40:09information as possible, knowing that, you know, when you change passing strength against this team, they they don't bring the nickel, they do bring
40:17the nickel. If the nickel doesn't go with the the the slot receiver motioning, you know it's a blitz. like there's there's unique pieces of
40:25information about every single defense that you're sort of trying to mine pre- snap and I think that that's going to be, you know, something that if if fans
40:33want to take a look at that there there's a lot of interesting information there. But, you know, if you're watching a game and you see a
40:42tight end or fullback type body split out wide to a side and you see him matched with the team's top corner,
40:52just in general football theory, like you have to be thinking like, okay, the matchup of a receiver on an interior player, whether that's a safety or a
41:02linebacker, like you know, there there there's there's some really strong matchup opportunities to try to exploit.
41:09And um you I think you know a good example over the years is when Keenan Allen would have these really high
41:16volume target games and they would just they would just move him into the slot and if you didn't you know travel a top
41:21coverage player with them they they knew they knew you were in zone and then he was just going to basically win win his
41:28matchups there and they were just going to you know throw them ball 12 times a game. But I think that world is very
41:34interesting. the the the play actions out of big personnel is a clear uh opportunity. The right now the
41:42biggest sort of issue for offenses is solving these two high defenses that are just they start in a two high shell and
41:50they either stay in a two high shell or they spin to a one high and you know it's the Mike McDonald system. It's
41:56Fangio does the same thing and they they they have all these different tools to try to handle gaps and handle you know
42:03handle blocks accordingly in the box and it it gets really complicated. These guys are brilliant. Um and you know you I I've sat in offensive meetings. I sat
42:11in defensive meetings. You sit in some of the defensive meetings like there there's some high IQ discussions because you when you're when you're a defensive
42:19coach you have to have a solution for everything that could happen. So like if you imagine if you were like writing
42:25code like you have to you have to have a line in your code for every bug like like okay they send the three vertical
42:32and then he wheels back like okay well in our zone matchup principles nobody's taking him so we have to have we have to
42:39have an answer and offense is a little bit more simple. It's like okay read this triangle read read this high to
42:46low. You know it's it's it's you know I think it's interesting. thing. I mean, I'm not I don't mean to insult any
42:51offensive coaches or anything like that, but um it's there's a lot, you know, you're when you're going against Pat Mahomes or Josh Allen or some of these
42:59brilliant offensive minds, like you need to have you need to have high-speed internet as a defensive coordinator to really kind of be able to process
43:07exactly how you're going to prevent them from from putting up 30 on you or putting up 40.
43:14>> Yeah, I I think that's really interesting. you know, the offensive play callers certainly have the more uh sex appeal, but uh yeah, the the
43:22defensive coordinators, you know, can be just as smart. It's just, you know, maybe not what uh seems to be, you know,
43:31uh there there's no there's no Well, yeah, it's it's it's weird how there's there's so so many fewer defensive coordinators or defensive-minded head
43:40coach than there are offensive uh play callers, also a head coach.
43:45Yeah, I think over time this has become a a narrative that um essentially you you might want to be a a little bit
43:57more motivated to hire an offensive coach because um >> it just matters more.
44:03>> Well, yes. Well, here's a I'll give you a couple reasons. One is if the offensive coach is or sorry, if you hire
44:10a defensive coach and he hires an offensive coordinator and the guy does great, he just leaves for a head coaching job in one to two years and
44:15then you have to start all over again.
44:17If you hire if you hire a great offensive coach, Ben Johnson's not going anywhere. Like he's going to be there if
44:22he wants to be there for the next 15 years. Like he's you have him. And then offense is more I'd say his offense is
44:29more stable on a year-to-year basis. Um, and you know, that was part of what I was involved with the Jaguars coaching
44:36search when you know that ultimately settled on Liam Conan. Like we were we were really kind of emphasizing that we needed a the long-term success of your
44:46team. Like would you rather have a great defense for 10 years or a great offense for 10 years? Like you almost certainly
44:52would rather have a great offense. Um, and and you you you'd like to have both, but if you had to choose, like you don't
44:59necessarily want to be the Cleveland Browns of the last few years where they have a a dominant defense at times, but
45:06they're, you know, winning four games.
45:08Um, as opposed to if you have a great offense, like you're probably going to ultimately win a lot of games. And
45:13really part of the reason that we were emphasizing offense too with um the Jaguars was that the team had made a
45:20massive investment into Trevor Lawrence and he didn't have his best season the the prior year and really it was about maximizing him and and getting the most
45:28out of him >> you know particularly as I think he had not even started the five year the five-year extension that he was he
45:36currently is on.
45:39>> Yeah. So, so whether it's an offensive-minded head coach or a defensive-minded head coach, let's say, uh, you're you're the GM of this this
45:49football team. What would you be telling the coach or the offensive coordinator or the defensive coordinator to do differently on on Twitter? you you're
45:58you're making a you're going out of your way to talk about how much of an advantage it is to to pass on early
46:06downs or to pass on second and 10 for the free play or to make sure you're you know uh utilizing the QB sneak. Uh is
46:14that an example? Is there are there any other hidden uh you know efficiency or edges that just aren't being maximized?
46:21I think for sure uh the just sort of the framing of way you of how you asked that there's a there's a really delicate
46:28balance of general manager and head coach and like what is the organizational structure in different places and in many instances
46:39you know it's like it's really not the GM's sort of position to be trying to nudge play calling or strategy in those
46:47sorts of ways. Now, they may try to do that respectfully, but a lot of coaches sort of view that as like sort of
46:52stepping on their turf. But at the same time, like there also is places where the coaching staff kind of reports to
46:58the general manager. But I'd say um a lot like if you're not in the year
47:072025 using quarterback sneaks or you're one of the lowest play action teams or you um you know you're just lining up in 11
47:17personnel every time like there there there's at this point there's so many people covering the league and and have access to at least some useful data that
47:27like th those narratives are going to come out like or if you're not targeting your top receiver enough or you know
47:35whatever that may be and I think you you get sort of a d at times like the management of the team or the ownership
47:42of the team can maybe give a little bit of a nudge like hey why aren't we you know why did this player only have six
47:49targets like you know the this player on this team has averages 11 and a half um and I think but just on a macro
47:58perspective I think you generally want to be high in play action. You'd like to be high in quarterback sneaks. There is the nuance
48:05that many of the teams that are not running quarterback sneaks there. There's like a injury risk situation like managing health.
48:15>> Um so personally I would I would consider either doing it with a tight end or having a backup. I I think
48:22there's a wild card that that the Chiefs come out and Justin Fields as their short yardage offense quarterback.
48:28>> Yeah.
48:28>> Like don't sleep on that because they they ever since Pat Mahomes heard had had an injury on sneak a long time ago,
48:35they basically have run none of those and they've they've had some times when they've been really strong in short yardage other seasons where they have
48:42have struggled a little bit. And Justin Fields might be the optimal the optimal guy for short yardage like >> Right. And I I if I was building a team,
48:53I would want him on my team, particularly for the cost that you'd be looking at for him. Um, and I think at the end of the day, uh, like
49:05if you're if you're the the front office, I think you just sort of want your coaching staff to be open to data
49:10and open to research and whatnot. You know, some of these guys get very stubborn or get defensive. Um, you know, I've talked to guys and tried to sort of
49:19I've been in different places sort of try to sell the staff on and and there's different buyin levels and I've I've had
49:28points where I think two different coaches said to me analytics is the reason I got fired from my last job. So,
49:34so there's a there there's there's sort of a delicate balance at times, but I think uh you know, if everybody on and
49:43the organization's on the same page and like you're you're trying your best to win on a weekly basis, like I think uh
49:50you you you won't get that much of of the management sort of nudging the coaching staff, you know, from my experience.
49:59So, a a question I have for you is is in your mind, how how stark is the difference between a top five play
50:06caller and a bottom five play caller?
50:09Like, in my mind, it's like a a power law differential. It's like almost impossible to quantify how important that is and how how big the impact can
50:18be. And then also like how how can you tell them apart? You kind of just said, well, more play actions better. Uh,
50:27which which has me nervous for Frank Reich. Like I don't know if you watch the Stanford offense last year, but they
50:34were bottom five in the FBS and play action rate. Now he's the offensive coordinator of the Jets. There's there's other teams like that. Um, but yeah,
50:43it's just like, dude, look at look at the Jaguars press or look uh Shane Waldin to Liam Cohen or the Bears Press.
50:52Wait, no.
50:54Yeah, it was it was it was Press Taylor and Shane Waldron to Ben Johnson. I got those mixed up, but like the the the
51:01kind of night and day difference of the offense with like largely the same supporting cast.
51:06>> Yeah. So, um I think it makes a huge difference and um it's uh
51:16really the two the the there's I'd put like three worlds of where there's just totally different um levels whether and and when it comes
51:27to like the onfield product and the first one being offensive and defensive line talent.
51:36And when your team is overmatched on the O line and D line or one side or the other side, either both or one or the
51:43other, everything about operating the team is so much harder. The running back has nowhere to go. The quarterback's getting killed. The receivers don't have
51:52time to get open. Defensively, the corners are getting are getting picked on because there's no pass rush. Um, you know, the run game you you have to call
52:00more blitzes because the the run game's sort of going off. And I've been in a situation in Philly where everything was
52:09about investing in the trenches. And we had games we would, you know, be in pregame warm-ups to look over at their
52:15sort of O line Dline and look at ours and be like, we're probably going to win this game. And that was partly why we
52:22could swap in a backup quarterback and and have success still is because that was sort of the engine of the franchise.
52:30The second kind of clear difference is the obviously the quarterback position.
52:35Like if you do not have a top 10 quarterback, then you're you have to do something innovative to try to win. And
52:44if you and for some teams, if you have like what a bottom 10 quarterback, you you you're you're kind of just
52:53planning for the next year's draft.
52:55like like like you know it's it's just it's really hard for some of the and it's very obvious when you have the guys
53:01that can't do it versus the guys that are in that world that where you can win at all >> like I don't know that play action under
53:08center drop a heavy personnel cheat codes like that is going to help like Zack Wilson three years ago, right?
53:15>> Yeah. and and and and to and like uh uh I got a lot of great friends with the Raiders and and I I hope that they they
53:22win a Super Bowl and I I I totally respect everyone there, but that roster was on the O line and Dline compared to
53:32Philly. It was like playing in a different sport. And that shows up in a lot of the metrics like the yards before
53:38contact or like you know the lack of help that Max had for, you know, pass rushing and run stopping and whatnot.
53:44And you know, we tried we tried to run quarterback sneaks. Our old line was was not great. We we we were one of the
53:52higher teams in play action. Um we we were trying to take shots in second and short like Ben Johnson. there there was
53:58a receptive attitude to to a lot of those things, but when you're just overmatched at such a critical area of the field
54:07for, you know, whatever it is, 120 snaps a game that like all these edges that you're looking for, they it's it's
54:15really hard. It like it's it's great to find those edges, but it's really hard to win. And um you know, they the the
54:22Raiders obviously invested more money into the center position this year than anyone else. And I think that that was a a a big positive to kind of start to get
54:31that on track. I think they probably need to continue to invest on both sides of the ball there to kind of help out
54:37Genty and and get his yards before contact up because it was it was it was rough rough at divs. Uh what about Brock
54:45Bowers? Are you are you high on Brock Bowers? What was it like, you know, working with the coaches game planning for Brock Bowers? I don't want to use
54:53any hyperbole on this, but um you know w my first few days at OTAAS or whatever it was, just my first few
55:02days seeing him play in practice, all I could think about was this is exactly what a first ballot hal what a
55:12first ballot hall of famer looks like.
55:14Period.
55:15>> Wow. It it was it was so incredibly impressive. And just sort of as a joke, really not as a joke, but sort of half
55:24jokingly, at some point in camp, I printed out the number of targets. That was like the all-time in single season record for targets for a tight
55:35end and the all-time single season record for catches for a tight end. And I gave it to Pete and Chip. And I was I
55:40was saying this should be the target at least. And I think everyone's attitude just based off what we had saw and given
55:48the state of that receiver group um because the receiver group was a little bit I would say uh you know there there was
55:57some room for improvement with that receiver group at least.
55:59>> Yeah.
56:00>> And um because of that we were we actually were planning on really uh featuring 12 and and even some 13
56:08personnel as our base offense. And then that first game we played the Patriots which is really one of the most surprising outcomes of the whole season.
56:17You know, we upset the Patriots on the road. They go on to make the Super Bowl.
56:20We were terrible. But but uh Brock had I think he had over a 100 yards in two and a half quarters. And then he he suffered
56:28a pretty significant knee injury and he tried to play. This is the first game of the year and we're thinking, you know,
56:34we're a 12 personnel team. We're going to be doing a decent amount of 13.
56:39A lot of those plays kind of went out the window because we were sort of managing his injury and we on a week-
56:45to-eek basis it was unclear whether he was going to play and you know his health was always sort of managed and
56:51and you know because we had to and you could tell it impacted how he was doing and you know ultimately he ended up
56:58sitting out. He tried to play for a number of weeks. It it he wasn't the same guy. He ended up sitting out a
57:03little bit. He came back he had this great game against the Jaguars. He towards the end of the year he got shut
57:08down again. But um what a talented guy like like you you absolutely could put him out at receiver and him be one of
57:19the best receivers in the NFL.
57:21>> It's crazy.
57:22>> And um I just given the state of their receiver group right now, like I don't know if the Raiders are going to invest
57:28in another receiver. I don't know. It I know there's a lot of fans and media covering that suggesting that maybe they
57:35need to do so.
57:37But if they do not, I could imagine, you know, Brock just having a shocking amount of production.
57:46>> Yeah.
57:46>> Um and um he's a great kid. He works super hard. Um he's he's got rare traits. Like
57:56really really rare traits.
57:59>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a tight end who can play wide receiver at a really high level like I I don't Travis Kelce. I
58:06don't I don't know who else to name beyond that.
58:09>> Yeah. And it it's really impressive how in college he he just was so dominant at really the the the number one program in
58:17college football at the time and he just completely dominated at that level for a number of years. um which I think is
58:26pretty hard to do like as a very young guy in the SEC to just show up and and really be a difference maker. But um
58:35the sky's is the limit for him. Like if there's ever going to be a guy that shrinks the the gap in the contracts
58:43between receivers and tight ends, I would imagine it's Brock Bowers, you know, after this season. Um, and if I was the Raiders, if Brock has the season
58:52that I think he's going to have, I'd be looking to extend him immediately. So, like, you know, that that's that's sort of an advantage that
59:01Philadelphia is ahead of other teams on in the sense that they and and more and more teams are now doing this, but the earliest time that
59:11they could extend the player that was a successful draft pick, they would do so.
59:15and it was just so much more favorable from a a contract standpoint. And a lot of these teams that wait, and I think
59:22the the greatest sort of uh counter to that is their enemy, the Cowboys, who wait as long as possible and then they
59:31pay very high contracts as a result. And there's always contract disputes. And I think it just it just is much healthier
59:38for the locker room when the when the guys are under a long-term contract and it's stable as opposed to this constant
59:44narrative of is he is is he going to sign the tag? Is he going to trade? Is he going to hold out like that? It it it
59:51really kind of bogs down the whole organization when you're always dealing with those sort of discussions.
59:57Um, and so more and more teams are doing the Eagles. You know, there's other teams that were ahead of that a little
60:01bit too, but but really taking those successful draft picks and extending them as early as possible is it really kind of builds the foundation for your
60:10team.
60:13>> Yeah, I could I could really just talk to you all day and I'm I'm looking at the show sheet and I see 15 different
60:19questions, but I think that just means I I need to to get you on some other time.
60:23So I my last question for you right now um do you have any good Pete Carol stories because uh he there's some
60:32legendary stories from players. The guy seems like you know just like a a joy to be around and like an elite motivational
60:40speaker. You have any good Pete Carol stories for the folks at home? You know, I will ever forever for the rest of my
60:46life, I will be a close friend to Pete.
60:48And I think I really think he would have got the Raiders turned around. I think especially given how much money they
60:57invested this year. I think they spent more more guaranteed money than any team or at least of non-quarterback positions. There's there was massive
61:05upgrades throughout the roster. um that roster that he had to coach last year was completely overmatched and a a few of the the the difference makers on that
61:17roster all suffered injuries like Colton Miller went down in week four. He was actually playing quite well at left tackle. Brock had the knee injury week
61:25one. He was he was really going to be the focus of our offense. Max had a Max had a you know it's now obviously public
61:32like he had a pretty significant injury that he played through and the the the the roster just from a depth standpoint
61:42and from like a the if you took if you took the the 11th through and through 22nd best starters on that roster. It was by far
61:52the weakest roster that I've ever worked with. Um, and it's just we were always kind of just like plugging holes like
61:59trying to deal with this aspect of the roster. Let's okay, we have to stop the run game by doing this. Okay, we're
62:04putting the corners on an island. Okay, we we have to help the O line by chipping more. Okay, the now that we
62:09don't have guys getting out in routes.
62:10There was always some kind of hole that we were putting out. And um they're they're going to be so much better this
62:15year just from a a talent standpoint.
62:17It's very clear. But um and and I the my favorite thing about Pete is every single day he was so optimistic and
62:24positive and it made it it a great time to work there like like no matter what was happening he he everybody there knew
62:33that that Pete cared about them and he was going to treat them well. And um I'll give you one example is like I had
62:40a really uh sort of unfortunate situation early on in the season last year where uh I had a medical issue uh
62:49when I was at my house and and I I actually had to take an ambulance to um the hospital and I'm thinking like I'm
62:56probably not going to be able to come into work tomorrow and I just I sent a uh I sent a text to Pete. I'm like,
63:02"Hey, I I just just a heads up. I'm probably, you know, not going to come in." And 20 minutes later at like 11:30
63:11at night, P. Carol shows up at the hospital. Oh my god. Unannounced. I had no idea he was going to do this. I don't
63:18know if he drove from home. I don't know, you know, what went into that, but like that's a type of that's a type of
63:24of behavior that makes you like truly and and I I just met Pete in in March.
63:30like I I didn't know him for a long time and the fact that he did that he didn't even you know uh
63:37he just did it because he's a great guy and um you know as things were kind of spiraling this past year like I was going to
63:45support that guy throughout no matter what like I was I was my attitude was like I'm going down with the ship with
63:50this guy like he's such a such a good person and he cares so much he he checks up on me all the time he he you know for
63:56the coaches on his staff that happen to you know, not work for the Raiders anymore. Like he went out of his way to
64:02try to get those guys jobs. He's he's he's bending over backwards, you know, to advocate. Um just such a such an
64:09awesome guy. Um and I think uh he just there there was always funny things going on like he's he's a he has
64:17a really good sense of humor. And I'll probably leave you with this one, but um you know he he taught a class last
64:25spring on I think it might have been Fridays or something in in the spring and so it was at USC and he'd have to
64:33fly back down to USC every um whatever it was every couple of weeks or every week on Friday and he'd have these guest speakers on the on
64:45the uh that would come in and it was like an impressive impressive list like famous people like all sorts of big-
64:53time names. But um he had told me when I took the job he's like anything that uh anything I ask you to do like I need you
65:03to just do it. He's like he's like I just need you to trust me. Like I I sometimes I'm just going to need your
65:08help with some things and I need you to do it. I'm like all right sounds good.
65:10So he came into my office one day last spring. He was scrambling and he's like I'm leaving really soon. like I need I
65:18need you to tell me everything I that I need to know about Rain Wilson. And this is like I'm thinking like is this some
65:25guy from the draft? Like is this like a UDFA target from Western Michigan or something? Like and I and I'm like but
65:31the name it sounds familiar. and I just type in the name and it's Dwight Shroo from the office. [laughter] And and so he was actually going to
65:41Pete's class to speak and Pete just wanted me to get together basically a summary of his career and just so he
65:48could at when he was flying down to USC that he could familiarize himself with it. And I got I was very amused by that
65:55because The Office is one of my favorite shows ever. But um uh that was kind of the relationship that we had. Like we
66:02just laughed about it and I just did it.
66:03And um uh he's I think probably everybody that's ever worked with Pete has some kind of wild story like that. He just something crazy
66:13happened or he he had some joke or he had some some something planned. And um it it it was a it really was a great
66:21experience. And it's not a surprise that so many players that played for Pete and coaches that worked for Pete and fans of
66:28teams that Pete coached for just really beloved they just just loved the guy. He because he treated everyone so well and
66:35he had such an upbeat positive atmosphere and um not for nothing like he he's a brilliant defensive mastermind. Like that's the stretch that
66:46he had with Seattle was one of the best stretches in NFL history in terms of that there was like a three or four year
66:52run where they're just they were so dominant defensively and um you know and he he had a lot of significant roster
67:01sort of decisions that helped that team win the Super Bowl this year. Like he really was the lead person on a lot of
67:07those draft decisions from a few years back. and um he uh he's he's he's a great guy. He's a sharp guy. I think he
67:16deserves to go into the Hall of Fame. Um >> yeah, >> and uh I'm really grateful that I got to spend that time with him and and I'll
67:23forever consider him a friend >> and he's mid70s and he has like insane energy and sharp as attack.
67:29>> He he's got he's got a long way to go.
67:32Like he's he's going to be like 125.
67:36Like [laughter] >> that's great.
67:38Uh, dude, Ryan, this was this was so much fun. You really delivered. This was an awesome podcast. Really appreciate you coming on. Uh, you were awesome at
67:47Twitter. Like, you must you must have had like a 5,000 follower burner during your time with the Raiders and Jaguars because because you are so good at
67:55Twitter. Uh, can you let the folks at home know how they could follow you on Twitter? Check out your tweets. Do you
68:02have a YouTube coming up? What what's what's going on?
68:05>> Yeah. So my just Twitter is pretty simple. It's just my my name, Ryan Paganetti. I think I'm going to go the
68:12YouTube route. I'm still kind of feeling it out in terms of long form content. If people want to subscribe, it's it's Ryan
68:18Paganetti NFL and and I'm sort of going to feel out how people are receiving what I'm sort of putting out there and
68:25and sort of go from there. The world of media and public being in the public sphere after not being there for a long
68:32time. It's very interesting. Um, but I appreciate, you know, people keeping an eye on my work. If people have questions, if they want me to look into
68:39things, like I'm happy to sort of research. Sometimes the the local fans have the best ideas. Like there might be there might be some New York Jets fan
68:49that's a die hard and he just never has really been able to study a particular topic. and he might have a great point
68:57like that that maybe there there's been times I've seen people from my time whether it was with the Eagles or Jaguars that some random fan with like
69:0613 followers says something on Twitter and I'm like that's a great idea like I'm going to show the GM or I'm going to
69:11show the head coach that because there there's a lot of really bright people and it's sort of like a wisdom of crowds
69:16principle where >> um you know just having an open mind to to some of those things is really good and um but anyway yeah I'm gonna keep
69:23hosting we're gonna kind of how people um react to it. I I think so far the biggest reception was there was a lot of people were excited
69:32about the whole Ben Johnson running Ben Johnson throwing a lot on second and short. I think that that was that was a
69:39good one. Uh your field goals tweet we could talk about again. My my show sheet is endless. Uh Ryan, you have a standing
69:47invitation to come on. I'm I really hope we can do this again. And uh folks at home, please, you know, support, have
69:53leave nice comments in uh on the YouTube and uh be sure to follow Ryan and interact with his work on Twitter.
