0:00Welcome to The Athletic Football Show brought to you by the U.S.
0:03Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. I'm Robert Mays. It's the Week 5 Hangover today.
0:07Me and Derrik Klassen dug into three games from Sunday's slate.
0:10Chatted about the Sunday night game between the Falcons and the Ravens, dug into Bengals Dolphins, and then chatted about Texans Titans,
0:16and our thoughts about the Marvin Harrison Jr. trade with him heading to the Texans.
0:20That's what we got today with me and Derek Klassen.
0:23Let's dig into it right now. It's the Week 5 Hangover.
0:26Three games we're digging into today. We're going to hit Bengals Dolphins a little bit later and talk about Texans Titans, but
0:32we're going to kick things off as we often do on these Monday shows with the Sunday night football game.
0:38Chat a little bit about Ravens Falcons. For each of these games moving forward, I want to start these conversations just with
0:44when you think back on this game at the end of the season, you think back on Ravens Falcons, what is going
0:50to be your biggest takeaway from that game? And so as you sit back and think about last night, what would your answer to that question be?
0:57How are you going to remember this game eight weeks from now?
1:01That's a really good question. I do think that this is a game that for a young Ravens coaching staff, for a
1:07team that does not have their quarterback who is playing out of his goddamn mind this season, this is the type of
1:13game that like the Ravens have to make sure that it's a very survive and advance situation against the Falcons team that
1:19previous two weeks had been very good. And so the Ravens getting away with a win in a way that like sometimes
1:25they just had tendencies to lose these games. I think that I'm going to remember that.
1:29And then I also I was really and I know that he's not going to play center for the remainder of this season.
1:35The way that the interior offensive line specifically handled all the attack front stuff from Atlanta was unbelievably impressive for your you're on.
1:42And he's what setter for really who's a rookie right guard moving to center.
1:46It's his first like real like start there. And then you have a backup right guard and all of the attack front stunting getting up the field.
1:53Baltimore just handled super clean. And I think if the promise of like our team is the zone run game and we
1:59can build it all off of that to get the game that they played against the front.
2:04That's been playing really really well this season that to me is hopefully like a OK by you know we will remember
2:10performances like this later in the season. I think those are two things I came away with as well.
2:15First thought I just did my replay video about it.
2:18I think Declan Doyle just has it. Oh definitely.
2:20I think he has it and that there's a lot that goes into that conclusion but even the stuff that wasn't working
2:26in this game and the first half of the Ravens was so frustrating.
2:30You have a couple drops the balls on the ground.
2:33It just it was a frustrating half and they there were a lot of missed opportunities in that half.
2:38But even in some of those moments like this is a really weird example to throw out but there was a play
2:44where they were down 7-3 they were at midfield and the Falcons were in a pressure front and the Ravens tried to
2:50run the ball on that third and five into like that pressure front and Doral just makes a great play.
2:56It's kind of standing up Rosengarten in the hole at the point of attack makes the tackle they end up punting.
3:01But even in something like that you watch the play call and you watch why he's making it and it's like there's
3:07so much and I can clearly see the intent.
3:10And the thought and the purpose and why he's doing all the things that he's doing and even when some of it's
3:16not working and for a play caller that's this young doing it for the first time to have this sort of feel
3:22for what he's doing situationally why he's making the choices that he's making just having an understanding of the game flow and
3:28what how he's trying to attack people in the moment.
3:31I just think it's really advanced and refined for somebody this young doing it for the first time.
3:36And I think that was fully on display to me last night.
3:39I think that part was important because sometimes when these guys are coming from certain coaching trees you know they can hit
3:45the bigger picture stuff of what the scheme is supposed to look like and all that stuff but having a little more
3:51of nuance of like understanding because Ben Johnson does that all the time.
3:55It's third and five and you're in a pressure look buddy he's just going to cram it up the middle and he's
4:01going to try to get those five and six yards.
4:04So the fact that the Ravens are willing to do that and have shown the capacity to do that I think is promising.
4:10I also literally the first play of the game they're just like jet play to our best player or to our best
4:16wide receiver like that getting him one getting him activated on that stuff and just getting your best wide receiver the ball
4:22in his hands on the first play is always nice to just get things jump started.
4:26But then also if you're the Falcons now you've got to think about that for the rest of the entire game.
4:32They get a 13 yard pop on a jet thing immediately now for the rest of the game you're like well if
4:38he's ever moving like is he going to get the ball?
4:41Again, what are they going to do off of it?
4:44It's just one of those things that helps you be on the front foot as a play caller.
4:49And so I've just been really impressed by what he's done for the entirety of the season and now to have already
4:55kind of passed the having to do it with a backup quarterback against a pretty solid defense check is pretty good.
5:01Even there was a sequence where they try to throw a throwback pass with Zay where Snoop Huntley was actually open.
5:07I guess if they had set up and thrown that ball he was open it falls incomplete it gets to be third
5:13and 10 and immediately after that they run a screen on third and 10 from plus territory that would have popped for
5:19a really big gain if the ball was just a little bit higher.
5:22And so again there's just four or five moments in this game where even on stuff that didn't work I just clearly
5:28understood why they were trying to do it. And then there was plenty of stuff that did work.
5:33I mean that sequence where they have the fullback handoff to Justice Hill on third and one that he pops through like 45 yards.
5:40And then it's a great great call. And it's it's and it's one of those where if it doesn't work we probably
5:46give him a lot of shit over it. But that thing hits so fast in short yardage it goes for 43 yards
5:52I want to say and that was the same drive where they have the throwback screen to Derrick Henry where they're pulling
5:58a guard the other way they influence it off play action like it just for to call it with a backup quarterback this way.
6:05And we I want to talk about the way Steve Huntley played it because I also thought he was really impressive just overall in this game.
6:12I just thought that the the plan and execution on offense for the Ravens fell in line with what we've seen from them the entire season.
6:19Obviously when Lamar is in there you're going to have an unbelievable ceiling.
6:22But I think yesterday was proof that even without him in the game there is a certain floor for this offense that
6:29not every team can achieve when their backup quarterback is in the game.
6:32And again not just missing him you're missing you know the interior.
6:35Is is in a weird spot which we talked about at the top of the show but also you're missing some of
6:41your tight ends and that just doesn't matter. You're able to get Josh Cuevas like activated in the game.
6:47He had a couple of catches like and he's like your third or fourth guy who is a rookie and you know
6:53getting a rookie tight end activated in that way.
6:55I thought was super impressive. The other thing to me the fact that Devontae Walker is not like an anchor on this wide receiver core.
7:02That to me is another testament to this this this coaching staff like he caught I think he had eight targets all of last season.
7:09He already has seven this year which is not like they're not making him a key part of the offense.
7:14But the fact that you don't feel the Devontae Walker snaps in a negative way I think is really really impressive.
7:20And so it's just every little thing that this coaching staff is doing.
7:24And then you see with the backup quarterback like almost every backup quarterback is dependent on like how well the offense is
7:30being schemed around him because they're backup quarterbacks. They're not that good and so they need the help and they need not
7:36even just in terms of how open are we coaching guys but like how much how well is the coaching staff keeping
7:42you on the tracks of like you need to throw this.
7:45You this this is the timing of it and you could just tell Snoop Huntley was like very attuned to the way
7:51that the offense was supposed to function. And I thought that that was also really impressive.
7:55Like I every beat of this offense and this coaching staff and the players on it.
8:00They are one that I want to believe in especially when we when we get the quarterback back into it.
8:05Not only was Devontae Walker that's not an anchor.
8:08He scored a huge touchdown in this game. That was a defined positive target for Devontae Walker.
8:13And I think that the Snoop Huntley performance overall, you know, it's a lot of stuff that there are quick easy decisions
8:19and quick easy options available to the quarterback throughout this game.
8:22But there are plenty of moments where he has to make something happen that's not there.
8:26I mean to me the the best example of this touchdown drive in the fourth quarter.
8:30It's first and 20 to start that drive and that play he makes spinning out and finding Zay Flowers for a huge gain.
8:37And that's if that play doesn't happen. There is a very good chance the Ravens do not win this game.
8:42And so even if there were a lot of things kind of being catered to there are a lot of things catered
8:48to him over the course of this game in the way that you have to with a backup quarterback.
8:54I thought that overall he was still really impressive.
8:56He had eight incompletions overall in the game to three of them.
8:59I think you can qualify as drops. One of them was tipped at the line of scrimmage.
9:04Like even going 24 of 32 still doesn't speak to how sharp he was for most of the day.
9:09You just did not feel like I mean like you felt like they were there was a backup quarterback in the game
9:15insofar as like they were kind of limited in what they wanted to do.
9:19But not so far in the quality of it.
9:22Like again, I just I thought he played really really well.
9:25And also he handled some of the pressure stuff really well because the Falcons still got into the backfield a decent amount.
9:31He did take three sacks in this game, but it just wasn't ever as like catastrophic as I think it could have
9:37been given how well the Falcons have pressure generally, but also did in this game because there were a couple that like they get into the backfield immediately.
9:44And like those are plays that could turn into strip sacks or they could just turn into plays that were much worse than they were.
9:51And he was able to kind of weather the storm.
9:54He did it in two different ways on the final touchdown drive of regulation.
9:58The Falcons were playing a lot of soft zone and he found a lot of completions as they were doing it.
10:04When we got into overtime, they started bringing a lot of pressures in overtime.
10:08They're very distinct approaches from the Falcons defense on those two drives.
10:11And when they were bringing pressure on that final drive in overtime, he had multiple different answers.
10:16I mean that third and three flip he has to Andrews to beat the pressure with the ball was really impressive.
10:21And then there's a third and six. I want to say that they do a great job of picking up and that
10:27was that was the play where I was like, man, Emory Jones.
10:31Well done. He does a great job picking up that pressure.
10:34Yeah. Yeah. And they get the first down because of it.
10:37And so it's overall, I just think, an expression of an offense that is really put together in all of the right ways right now.
10:44The interior of the offensive line point is a good one.
10:47Like there was part of me watching this, thinking about them giving up a second round pick for Cam Juergens and being
10:53like, did we need to do this? Could we survive with this group for the rest of the season?
10:58I know that's a short-sighted way of thinking about it.
11:01You probably get better by moving Juana back to guard, even if he's been capable at center.
11:05But I do think overall, Jones got cooked by, I think, Jared Ivey for a sack in this game.
11:11But that was really the only moment where I noticed how banged up the interior was, the fact that you had backups
11:17playing at center and guard technically for the Ravens in this game.
11:20Because like Jones, yeah, like the one where he gets beat by Ivey immediately and like Snoop has nowhere to go.
11:26Oh, that one's tough. But like Emory Jones like had moments in the run game when they were trying to pick up blitzes.
11:32Like I thought that he was totally fine. And so like, I probably agree that I think if they didn't trade for Juergens, they could totally survive.
11:39It will probably be better for them, especially if you're a serious contender the way that they are.
11:44But it is a fun thought that like they look good enough that they could legitimately survive taking their rookie guard, moving
11:50him to center for the first time in his career.
11:53And they kind of just look fine and better than they did last year, like much better than they did last year,
11:59which the interior really is what killed them last year.
12:02And so the fact that they're on two out of three backups in a way with their interior now and look so
12:08buttoned up is just a far cry from what it looked like.
12:11People are probably going to be like, well, they needed a miracle to come back and win the game.
12:17How are we heaping all this praise onto the Ravens offense?
12:20Again, there were a lot of frustrating moments in the first half.
12:23Andrews drops the ball at the goal line. He then fumbles.
12:26Zay dropped a third and three, third and four that should have been caught on like a slant.
12:31Talked about that third and five run that is a good call in the moment.
12:35It gets stuff they have to punt. I just think there were a lot of sequences that you get some bad breaks
12:41over the course of the game, even if the offense is playing well.
12:45I mean, you go back and look at it.
12:47The Ravens finished with a 51% offensive success rate in this game against a Falcons defense that had really been giving people a lot of problems.
12:54And so even on a day where there were a lot of frustrating moments that the ball doesn't bounce your way, you
13:00potentially lose this game on the road. I still felt like the offensive performance top to bottom was very impressive with a backup quarterback.
13:07Yeah. Let's talk about the other side of the ball.
13:10What are your impressions of what you saw from the Falcons quarterback in this game?
13:14He makes like four throws a game that are really impressive, like some of the deep outs that they were able to
13:20get open, which that is actually one thing I thought the Falcons offensive infrastructure did well is like some of the two
13:26deep stuff that were the man coverage stuff that the Ravens were trying to play.
13:30They did a really good job of getting like two and three vertical routes into the same area and springing open like
13:36some of those deep sail routes or deep crossers and stuff that he loves.
13:40I think that there are just certain restrictions to his game that continue to leave me wanting like inability to throw over
13:46free rushers multiple times in this game. He's like dirtying throws because he can't do that.
13:50He was, I think, two for 11 with three sacks under pressure because he's just not the best mover.
13:56And his response against pressure is backup, backup, backup, backup.
13:58OK, I'm just going to throw it. And I think why that becomes especially troublesome for him is he has a low release point.
14:05And so if you're like just like backing up, backing, backing up, you're still kind of like low release point throwing at defensive linemen in front of you.
14:13So I think that that is an issue. And then you saw he the first play of the game.
14:18They try to run dagger and he's a beat late throws it behind Drake London on the dig route.
14:23And then he just like doesn't throw the middle of the field again.
14:27He throws the one touchdown to Kyle Pitts in the red zone against man coverage.
14:31And that's it. He just like doesn't try it again.
14:34And I think it's just I continue to have these moments and these drives where it's just I feel like I am
14:40left wanting for what he is like. He feels and I said this coming into season.
14:44He's an NFL quarterback. But to me, he feels like watching Jacoby Brissett, which like you can win games with that.
14:50But I don't know how much further we're going to develop from that.
14:53And I think I still have a lot more I want to see.
14:57I think all of that's valid. The middle of the field stuff to me is going to be the key moving forward,
15:03because what you're saying with the pressure and just the creativity as a thrower, that stuff is what it is.
15:09That's just who he is physically. I don't think there's any real planning around that.
15:13There was a play in the fourth quarter. It was a third and five.
15:17The Ravens bring a zero pressure with multiple droppers.
15:19And he's got to pop it over the free runner coming off to his right to be John.
15:24And he can't do it. And that happens a lot.
15:27And I also think that's a reason that I think this team should be running.
15:31They have they didn't do a ton of it in previous games.
15:34They did more of it in this game. I don't think you should be leaning into boots with him.
15:39I agree. He had a situation just like that earlier in this game.
15:43He can't handle the free rusher. He can't he can't handle it because he can't get the ball around that player.
15:49And he he isn't a good enough athlete to handle that guy.
15:52So both as a thrower and an athlete, he can't handle that guy coming free into his face.
15:57And so that's that stuff that's just going to be what it is.
16:01The middle of the field stuff, though, if he can start to access that more often, I think that there is a
16:07real path forward for him being a good quarterback.
16:09Like I think if both of those things being the concerns that I totally agree with that.
16:14If he handles the second one, I think that there's a lot to be excited about.
16:18And that's the one where I do think it would be possible with more time on task and just more starts.
16:24This is still a quarterback that has started 15 games in the NFL, 16 games in the NFL, and he's not doing
16:30it often enough, but he is doing it occasionally like that throw to Kyle Pitts for a touchdown.
16:35That's the type of thing where if he can start doing that consistently, then I think this becomes exciting.
16:40There was another play he had in the red zone where he throws a wrapper out to Pitts that falls incomplete.
16:46And it's kind of a dangerous throw in that moment in the fourth quarter.
16:50I think I like him making that throw. I don't mind that it's a little bit dangerous.
16:54I want to see him let things let those things go a little bit more.
16:59And there's, there was another, there's a two play stretch where I think in this game, you really saw his limitations in the first quarter.
17:05The one exactly what we're saying, they run a boot.
17:08I'm like a second and seven and he has to dirt it.
17:12And because it's into it, like a six man front, there's a guy coming free.
17:16He can't get the throw off. And then on the next play, it's third and seven.
17:20And if you watch the play unfolding, all made is a key is coming open on a crosser.
17:25And if you, as the, as everything's kind of, as the routes are distributing, he's going to have just enough space with
17:31Bijan coming out late to be able to fit that ball over Roquan Smith to OZ.
17:35If he's willing to make that throw, he's not.
17:38So he pulls it down, tries to scramble, get takes a short sack and then they have to punt.
17:43If that ball starts getting thrown. I think that I'm excited about what he could potentially be.
17:48But when you consider all of the limitations, if that ball isn't going to be thrown, that's where I think we're going
17:54to have some real concerns because he's just a little bit too boxed in.
17:58But I, with more time, I do think there is a chance that we see those balls getting ripped more often and
18:04more frequently than they are right now. Yeah, I hope so.
18:07I just, I think when I think about that specific issue, I can't recall many quarterbacks who got a lot better at that.
18:13Like, I think that that's my problem at specifically like being willing to make the like big boy nails in like throwing
18:19through the car wash middle of the field throws.
18:22And again, he doesn't have to do it to the level of like Matthew Stafford or Dak Prescott.
18:27It just has to get, I think, one tier better than it is.
18:30But I do think that that is something that quarterbacks, it's not innate necessarily, but a lot of guys are like they
18:36really want to make those throws or they really don't.
18:39And you have to do a lot of coaxing to get them to make more of those throws.
18:44But the fact that he's willing to do it every so often, that's why I have hope for it.
18:49Like there are guys that, there are some quarterbacks that wouldn't even try to make that throw to Pitts for the touchdown.
18:55Like that just wouldn't be a throw that was on the table for them.
18:59And so the fact that he's willing to do it every so often, because I think, and we can have, I think
19:05it's a worthwhile conversation, whether this is a mental thing or not.
19:08Like whether, or it's just an innate feel thing.
19:11Like I do think there is a certain aspect of playing quarterback and Lamar is to me the perfect example of this,
19:17where some of the willingness to access that area of the field, Bryce Young is the way Bryce Young is playing now
19:23is another good example of this, where it really is more about spatial awareness than anything.
19:27Like it's not being able to see it necessarily.
19:30It's truly just about spatial awareness and feel. And so if that is what it is, and it really is innate to
19:36that extent, it might be a binary yes or no thing.
19:39But if it's a little bit of that, but also a little bit of, as I gain confidence about what I'm seeing,
19:45I'm willing to make those sorts of throws. And I think that can happen with more time and experience in the course of your career.
19:52Then maybe it's something that he develops a little bit better handle on as he moves forward.
19:57I do think that might be possible, but if that doesn't happen, then I think the limitations start to rival or outweigh
20:03the strengths enough where it becomes a problem. Right.
20:05And again, like he's, he can stick around for a long time playing the way that he is right now.
20:11Cause he, I mean, he made like five or six really impressive outside the numbers throws in this game.
20:16But like you said, I think if you're going to try to develop him, him into what feels like a consistent top
20:22half of the league quarterback that I think the middle of the field stuff does has to happen.
20:27And I think even where I get like tough with it is like the pits one.
20:31That's like man coverage. Like he's just running with him.
20:34And so I think it's like, that to me is not thrown through the car wash in zone coverage.
20:39And I think that is the, what you're talking about, the spatial awareness, the feel of like, I know that if I
20:45throw this now, the ball will arrive past the linebackers ear hole, even though he's where he is in my receivers, where he's at.
20:52I think that stuff is a little bit more of a fuel thing.
20:56And I think there's a little bit of development to be done there, but I think just with Penix, the fact that
21:02this was an issue that I had with him coming out of college.
21:05And now I think that we've seen him in multiple different offenses where it still remains to me his biggest issue, obviously
21:11because it's only his 13th, 14th start, whatever it is.
21:14I'm willing to give him if he, if he does the other stuff that he's doing well enough, like even into next
21:20season, I'm willing to give him a runway for it.
21:23But that does have to be the thing of like, is this going to be worth our time or not, whether or
21:29not he can figure that out at all. And I think that's, that's just always a trait that I think I'm a
21:35little bit less willing to believe guys are going to develop.
21:38It's fair. I will say, I mean, Trent Simpson is sitting right in the middle of the field when he's willing to
21:44make that throw essentially past Trent Simpson's ear hole on the Kyle Pitts touchdown.
21:48And that's why I think that the incompletion that some people would probably say is a dangerous throw is actually the type
21:54of thing I want to see him doing more often.
21:57Yes, a hundred percent. He needs to learn what that feels like to make those throws.
22:01The, what you're talking about with some of the outside the numbers throws though.
22:05I mean, the drive for them to go up 14, six, the back shoulder crosser, he throws to London against man coverage against that, like drop eight.
22:12Look is just a disgusting throw. The pylon shot, the dots in is that's what he does.
22:17Well, that means just a huge chunk deep ball.
22:19Then he throws the touchdown to pits. There's a third and 11 in the fourth, in the third quarter where he comes
22:25all the way back to pits at like the end of a progression, all the way to the other side of the field.
22:32Like that's the other thing that jumps out to me is that he is willing to do that stuff.
22:37Like the fact that he can go full field and he gets through everything.
22:41Like it's not just that he's a like big armed quarterback where that's the main selling point.
22:46You do see the processing really jump out in a way that is impressive for a guy that is young.
22:51He's 26, but he hasn't played a lot of games, right?
22:54That just is inexperienced in the way that he is.
22:57And so I just kind of always find myself fighting, fighting.
23:00I find myself fighting myself about him because I completely understand why he's getting boxed in by some of these things while
23:06also acknowledging that there's so much to be excited about.
23:09And there really is a push pull between those two things.
23:12Listen, any, anytime a guy has that kind of arm talent, it's easy to chase the dragon.
23:16I think he's just, I don't even know what it is.
23:19Like, I think it is the middle of the field stuff.
23:22I may be just like too dogmatic about like you have to do that or I don't know if.
23:28And again, I think he can be good, but like not the quarterback that I'm necessarily betting on.
23:33The pits play was interesting though, because I think what you saw in that play, and I think I thought the Ravens
23:39guys were doing this throughout the game. They were a little loose on a lot of their zone landmarks and they were
23:45just playing his eyes like the whole game. And to his credit, he didn't really make a mistake like throwing at a
23:51linebacker, throwing at a safety, any of that stuff.
23:53And I do think that he's good at that.
23:56He doesn't put the ball in harm's way very much.
23:58And I do think that that is probably what is going to give him a runway to develop.
24:03We've talked about this before. He does not take sacks really, and he doesn't really put the ball in harm's way very much.
24:10And then he makes enough explosive throws that it's like, even if that there are things left on the table, he does
24:16enough for you that you want to see it through of like, okay, can we find the next level with him?
24:22It's not like, you know, some quarterbacks where you get like one good play every five and you're like, are we holding on to that?
24:28There's more than that to Penix. It's just, I think sometimes you wonder how fixable some of his lower moments are.
24:34The Ravens defense, it was a curious performance by them because I actually think some of their best moments were when they were bringing simulated pressures.
24:41Like when they were only bringing four is when they were actually speeding the Falcons up and getting some of these negative plays.
24:48On plays where they blitzed, they only had a 21% pressure rate in this game.
24:52And that's one of the keys to Michael Penix having good games is if you're not heating him up and he can
24:58be comfortable in the pocket, that's where he's able to dice you up.
25:01And there were plenty of examples in this game where the Ravens were just leaving him with way too much time.
25:07Like early in the game, the couple simulateds they had, I think on the first two drives, were some of their best
25:13pass rush moments in the entire game overall. And Trey Hendrickson didn't play, I understand that.
25:18And so, I mean, it's maybe not surprising that they, the pass rush wasn't that impactful for the Ravens overall.
25:23But I just thought it was curious that the simulateds where they only brought four were their best pass rush moments for the most part.
25:30Well, and Penix is good at that because Penix, when he sees some amount of pressure, he's pretty good at like replacing
25:36it, getting the ball out, making sure I'm not getting hit by a free rusher.
25:40But I think to the same point, when he sees simulated, he's also just like ball out.
25:45And like, he doesn't want to hold on to it as much.
25:48And I think that you see some of that.
25:51I will say too, I felt like the Ravens just got got in a lot of their man coverage stuff.
25:56Like every time they tried to play one-on-one stuff, the Falcons guys were just better.
26:00Whether that was Pitts on the touchdown or obviously London had a number of plays.
26:04Like I did think whenever Penix got his chances to take his one-on-ones, the Ravens guys were just not picking it up well.
26:11Or they had a couple of plays where you're getting some sort of rub route and Marlon Humphrey is just running into
26:17a teammate and you have whoever it was like wide open.
26:20And so I did think when they ran into those moments, especially on a lot of the third downs, like the Falcons
26:26third down passing was pretty good in this game.
26:28Their early down stuff is what was a little bit more up and down, I think.
26:33Yeah, the Falcons went 9 of 17 on third down.
26:36The Ravens went 8 of 15 on third down.
26:38So you had two teams that are checking in about 53% conversions on third down in this game.
26:43And it did feel that way. The last point that absolutely needs to be made, the discrepancy in the run games between
26:49these two teams went a long way in dictating how the game went.
26:53The Ravens went 35 for 208 with a 56% success rate per next gen.
26:56Falcons 26 for 110, 25% success for Atlanta. And you compare that to what their run game has looked like over the last couple games.
27:03And it's a pretty big chasm. And that was my big question about it coming in.
27:08What would the Ravens running defense look like against this team that had kind of been running the ball at will?
27:14And so there were a lot of two-yard gains, three-yard gains, four-yard gains on second and 10.
27:18Like that was consistently showing up for the Falcons over the course of this game.
27:22And like we said, they did enough on third down to kind of sustain themselves.
27:26But they had to do a lot on third down because the run game was not kind of the mindless eating machine
27:33that it's been for the most part. Dude, I thought the Ravens front was insane.
27:37Like that's like from everybody to like Travis Jones, I think played as well as he has for a lot of the season.
27:43Nnamdi Matabike. I don't know if he looks like all the way back, but he looks like a good football player again.
27:49Like there were multiple times where he's just getting into the backfield, immediately crossing face on Chris Lindstrom.
27:54Like there was one play where they're trying to run zone away and he just crosses the guard's face instantly and gets into the backfield.
28:01And him being able to do that, they can spike him to create space for Roquan Smith, which for Roquan, like you have to do.
28:08He's not a guy who comes up and hits people very much like you have to get him into some of those runs.
28:14I thought they did really good with that using Matabike.
28:17That was one of the best games I've ever seen Project Washington play, I thought.
28:21And then even to one more shout out for the Ravens defense.
28:24I thought for the first month of the season, Malachi Starks just did not look good.
28:29He did not look like he was playing fast.
28:31I don't know what that was about. Maybe it's new defense.
28:34Maybe he was banged up and we didn't know he was flying around in this game.
28:39Run defense, pass defense. He just looked a lot more active and they're going to need that if you're going to be
28:45some of these neutral and light box. We have the safety coming down late.
28:48I thought he did a really, really good job of that in this game in a way that, again, I just don't
28:55know for the first three weeks of the season we really saw from him.
28:58I came away, even against the backup quarterback, still feeling looking forward to the rest of the Falcons season.
29:04I guess that's what I would say. I left this game still being excited and interested in this team and what they're going to look like.
29:11They looked like a team that ran into a contender and they're just not quite up to snuff with those teams yet,
29:17but they are still like a good competitive football team.
29:20That's what that game felt like to me. All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back and chat a little Bengals Dolphins.
29:27I don't want to be too reductionist here. And I want to preface that before I make this introductory point about this
29:33game between the Bengals and the Dolphins. I come away from this game with the Bengals.
29:3731 points to 131, 24 point one for EPA, 50 percent success rate.
29:41Like just all across the board, like solid numbers.
29:43I've seen this Bengals game 50 times. Yep. And I've seen this game 50 different times.
29:48And I don't even mean that as a negative or a criticism.
29:51But I just think it's so funny that we spent all offseason being like, the Bengals are going to do this and
29:57the Bengals are going to do that. And it's going to be more under center and it's going to be more play action.
30:03And then when you watch the Bengals offense, we've just arrived back at the exact same point that we've existed in for
30:09the past like four or five years with some different nuances and subtleties about what they're trying to do week to week, season to season.
30:16Is that unfair? No, it was their highest gun rate of the season.
30:20And this to me, they're back at 80 percent, 80 percent, back 82 percent.
30:24And this game, I think, was very instructive for that because I think week five is the point in the season, especially
30:30against a Dolphins team that is just not good.
30:32You expect. To beat them. That to me is like a perfect point of like, OK, if we really want to commit
30:38to this, this is a game where we can really test some stuff.
30:42We can see if this is going to work for us.
30:45We can really commit to it. And they were just like, nah, go back to the other stuff.
30:50We'll score 30 points on these guys and get out of here.
30:53And I'm like, if that's what you guys want to be for the sixth year in a row, that's fine.
30:59I'm going to be honest. I'm kind of over it.
31:01Like, I just don't think that this offense is going to this offense will win 11 games doing this like there.
31:07They have enough talent to do this. This feels like they're going to run out of road at some point.
31:13And it just continues to feel that way. Like, I think for one, like there I think there were two incredibly three
31:19incredibly frustrating moments to me in this game. The first was there's a third and nine that Joe Burrow is trying to
31:25throw like a speed out a little bit short of the sticks.
31:28And if you're going to be this kind of offense where we're just going to be in gun, we're going to throw
31:34to our best guys immediately, all this stuff. You got to be perfect.
31:38And he just throws it low and behind T Higgins.
31:40It's not complete and they have no chance. There's a little bit more of that this year, I feel like, than we typically see from the Bengals offense.
31:48You had another moment, the middle of the second quarter, where the Dolphins are playing cover six and they're playing like 12 yards off.
31:55Like, they are not giving any sort of space vertically.
31:58And Joe Burrow just takes a snap and throws a go ball to T Higgins.
32:02It's capped the whole way. Like, he's never going to be open.
32:05He's never going to get the even you're leaving.
32:07It is completely capped and he just throws a balloon.
32:10It's obviously incomplete. And they just that's their only way to generate explosives is them just chucking it up to those guys.
32:16And I think that that, to me, continues to be very frustrating.
32:20And then the one of the few times they tried to do the under center play action stuff in this game.
32:25There's about 10 minutes left in the second quarter.
32:28Joe Burrow hits his last foot hits at the top of his drop and he is already throwing the check down.
32:34And I'm like, man, if the only time you're trying to turn the other dial, you are immediately checking the ball down.
32:40It's never going to work. And you're just going to run into teams better than the Dolphins late in the season where
32:46this stuff is not going to work the way you want.
32:49They scored a combined 37 points against the Texans and the Jaguars.
32:52And even that's not true because they scored a defensive touchdown, I think, against the Texans.
32:56I want to say, I think on the day, so he threw six play action passes.
33:01It felt like fewer than that. A couple of those are probably in the gun.
33:05But the three that I can remember, the one you're talking about with the check down, they threw a little slide route,
33:11I think, to Eric Hall for like a 13-yard gain at one point.
33:15Which those are the completions that have worked. Those are the play actions that have worked for them.
33:20Whenever they've tried, because part of the reason, there were two arguments, I think, for the play action, under center play action philosophy and pivot from them.
33:27One was it would make us more explosive. Two is that it would allow us to just have easier completions where every
33:33single member of the offense was getting to take a playoff in a way that you can't when you're living in the gun 85% of the time.
33:40The second bucket has provided them with some stuff over the first five games.
33:44There have been one or two completions a game where we got a tight end leaking out of the flat or it's
33:50a little slide route coming back across where the quarterback just has to flip it to somebody.
33:55We can get 12 yards. That has worked. The down the field explosiveness has been non-existent.
33:59Like, non-existent. They just had none of those. And this game was another example of it.
34:04And I kind of understand what you're saying in the sense that why would the results be different if the approach isn't going to be any different?
34:11And I do think if I were a Bengals fan and I was trying to talk myself into why I would be
34:17okay living in this world that we're talking about right now where they've kind of arrived back in a familiar place.
34:23The offense is always good. Right? The offense is always like a top seven or eight unit.
34:28The pass protection is better this year just because the offensive linemen individually are better.
34:32Like, having Mims playing the way that he's playing.
34:34Like, that stuff is better than it has been at any point.
34:38They're still 16th in rushing success rate overall, even if they're 31st in explosive run rate.
34:42Which, again, is exactly where this team just always has lived over the last few years.
34:46Because it's all RPO. It's that. And, yeah, we shouldn't be surprised by this.
34:50So, like, all that stuff, I think, the good stuff that you can carry over from season to season is still there.
34:56And I do think, overall, some of the relative weaknesses that you've had mostly along the offensive line have been solved.
35:02And so, the argument that this is a team that has hovered somewhere between, like, 6th to 10th in every major offensive
35:08efficiency category can finish in that range again. Maybe a little bit higher.
35:12Maybe they're the fifth best offense in the league over the course of the year.
35:16I don't think that's crazy. And then you pair that with a defense where the defense is also part of this.
35:22The 2026 Bengals are just the 2025 Bengals with some more defensive talent slapped on the side.
35:26And that might be okay. Like, that actually might be okay.
35:29It's a little bit frustrating and maybe a little bit disappointing.
35:32And I do think that you're climbing a somewhat steeper hill if that's the place that we're in.
35:37But I still think that formula overall might be enough.
35:40I think that's the story I'd be trying to tell myself if I were a Bengals fan because the increase in defensive
35:46front talent specifically is so extreme compared to what it was last year.
35:50I'll admit part of my frustration is probably just, like, I'm tired of seeing the same offense operate the same way that it's been.
35:56I get that. I had a similar feeling today.
35:59And I just don't like watching it. Like, it's not even just, like, I just, it's not even as cool as it
36:05was three or four years ago when it was more explosive.
36:08Even if it was limited, it's just not even that anymore.
36:11And I think that that. The explosives now are we're going to chuck it up to them.
36:16Yes. That's what the explosives have been. And again, if you're trying to talk about it hitting the same beats all the
36:22time, they did it again this week. It's like they're looking at the numbers on it.
36:26It's kind of disheartening. So in this game, five of Burrow's passes went more than 10 yards in the air.
36:32Five. He had 26 attempts of 10 yards or over.
36:34The one completion that they had down the field was just a chucked up 50-50 ball to arguably the best offensive player in the league.
36:41And when you can do that, it feels silly to ding a team for doing it.
36:46But this is just the constant formula week over week is that we have the gun efficient underneath making the right choices,
36:52slowly matriculating the ball down the field. And then once a game, one of those two guys is going to dunk on you.
36:58And again, that might be enough. It's just familiar to the point where it kind of makes your eyes glaze over a little bit.
37:05Yeah. And it's like, again, those plays are awesome.
37:07It's just that if you're going to be an actually scary offense, you should be able to generate explosives some other way.
37:13Like some sort of schemed up thing, whether it's the run game, whether it's the pass game, whatever it's going to be.
37:19And I think by virtue of how they run the offense being so gun heavy, I think it's just really, really difficult to do that.
37:26And so I just, they're a team that I think, again, they're going to finish 10 or 11 wins.
37:31They're going to be fifth or sixth in DVOA by the end of the season.
37:35And unless it looks better than it does right now, by the time we get to the end of the season, they
37:41just don't feel like a team to me that is actually scary.
37:45They're one of those that like the numbers look good and they'll have enough wins.
37:49And then they go into the divisional and they get smacked by a real contender.
37:53And I know that it's, you know, five weeks into the season and it feels early to say that, but that just
37:59feels like the essence of this team right now.
38:02It's looking at the numbers, they're just so right.
38:04They average, again, 50% success rate, 0.14 EPA per play.
38:07Joe Burrow had finished with 0.24 EPA per drawback, which is a really good number.
38:11The offense averaged 4.9 yards per play. Yes. And like Jaguars game, same thing.
38:15Joe Burrow throws for 400 yards. They scored 17 points.
38:17They are like cheesing the numbers that seem good and then they can't score.
38:21I mean, obviously in this game, they kind of do because the Dolphins are just not that good.
38:26But again, I just in a world where every other really good offense is continuing to develop and they're really showing different
38:32signs of being something new and adding all these elements.
38:35The fact that we're back to the same tried and true stuff with the Bengals and like even in this game, their
38:41run game could be kind of efficient, but it was all inside RPO stuff.
38:45And like the only reason it was working is because they were able to get Jacob Rodriguez out of the box.
38:51And again, I just think that better defenses are going to have better answers for that.
38:55It's 2026. Mike McDonald's seen in RPO. Brian Flores is seen in RPO.
38:59Like these guys are going to have answers. The last moment I want to make about the offense.
39:04As somebody who is heavily invested in Chase Brown in the fantasy football leagues that I care about, are we a little
39:10bit worried that Samajay Piran seems to be a more effective player right now than Chase Brown?
39:14Samajay Piran is one of those like unkillable players where he just kind of always sticks around.
39:19And I do think that they value him for what he does in the passing game.
39:24And if you're going to go back to this world where we are so gun heavy and we are not just doing
39:30the pure under center trying to run stuff, Piran does have a lot of value in that sense.
39:35And I do think that he has Chase Brown in theory, I think is more explosive.
39:39But if your run game is not going to allow itself to be explosive by virtue of how you're running, well, shit,
39:45you might as well just grind him down with Samajay Piran and get six yards all the time.
39:50I'm looking at it right now. So combined, all right, the Chase Brown and Samajay Piran in this game both had 12
39:56combined carries into light or neutral boxes, six or seven defenders in the box per next gen.
40:01On those 12 carries, Samajay Piran had six successful runs.
40:03So six of those 12 were successful against six or seven man boxes.
40:07Chase Brown had two. And it's I don't have to do more, have to take a deeper look at it to like
40:13actually try to figure out, is this the running backs problem?
40:16Is this some situational thing? Is this kind of random?
40:19Is it the runs that they're being asked to do?
40:22Like, is there actually some signal here in those numbers?
40:24But when you look at the numbers, they are what they are.
40:28I mean, the all the successful runs in this game essentially came when Sarajay Piran was the ball carrier.
40:33All the unsuccessful runs came when Chase Brown was the ball carrier.
40:36Whether that continues, I don't know. But it's it's something to keep an eye on at the very least, I would say.
40:42It's troubling if he was supposed to be your third best offensive skill player.
40:46I think I would say that, like if you expected him to be part of your difference maker.
40:51I will say for as much as I just like destroyed how I feel about the Bengals offense.
40:56Dante Myers is like a real player. He's I think he's got some real pop to him.
41:01And so I think that there's always going to be like the targets are just always going to be funneled to two guys.
41:07And I think when they get in the red zone, they really like Mike Gusecki.
41:11But he feels like he's more explosive than any of the other third wide receivers they've had in a really long time.
41:17And he opened this game with like an 80 yard kick return that got them onto the 10 immediately.
41:22So like he he feels like a nice little a nice little get for them.
41:27I think I think he was like a mid to late round pick.
41:30So for all of the bad things I just said about the Bengals offense, I did want to shout him out.
41:36Let's talk about the Dolphins offense. Malik Willis is not playing very well.
41:39I don't really know what else there is to say about it.
41:43I mean, you look at the box score and that'll tell you with the two picks, but you just watch the process down to down.
41:50It's just all over the place. Like if you compare it to again, obviously the Ravens have more talent across the board,
41:56but you watch like what Snoop Huntley looked like in that game and just how clean everything about it feels and understanding
42:02when he drops back, like what the intent of the plays are, where he's supposed to be going with his eyes, how
42:08he's supposed to be playing the plays. And then you watch what the Dolphins offense looks like.
42:12And there is just a valley between those two things.
42:15Like it just feels like he's all over the place right now.
42:19It does. And I think if we knew that he was going to be limited coming into this, he had been a
42:25backup quarterback for pretty much his entire career. And even in Green Bay, it was a lot of we're chucking it deep, we're booting or you're running.
42:32And I think that like when you're scheming up a backup quarterback game plan for three weeks, that's really easy to get
42:38away with, especially when you're Matt LaFleur, who's proven he can do this.
42:42And you have a Packers team that is just way more talented than what the Dolphins are running out right now.
42:47And I would say that I think part of the issue with the Dolphins is their deep passing game overall.
42:53It's just not very good. And I think if you're not going to have that with Malik Willis, then the rest of
42:59it is just going to fall apart. And I don't think all of that is Willis.
43:03Like the first big deep shot they try to throw in this game, Malik Washington is running like a deep crosser that
43:09kind of converts into like a wheel route on the opposite sideline.
43:13And he runs up towards the pylon. But he's like looking over both shoulders.
43:17He doesn't know where the ball is supposed to be.
43:19And that's one where I'm like, I think if he just like hauls ass and runs to the pylon, that's a completed touchdown.
43:26And so you've just got chemistry issues with a receiver core that is a lot of young guys have not really played with this quarterback before.
43:33And so I think you see that kind of bleeding into this thing.
43:36And then again, I think just their down to down stuff is not as good as you want.
43:41And I would also say, and this is also partly credit to the Bengals defensive line.
43:46The Dolphins offensive line just I don't think look very good in this game for a lot of parts of it.
43:52Yeah. And I mean, the right tackle is going to be a problem all year, but the left tackle had his issues in pass protection in this game.
43:59Like it's an it's a time. And I went out for like the second half like they were missing a lot.
44:05It's a group that we knew coming in wasn't going to be very talented and they were going to have to try to scrape by.
44:12And you're really going to have to piece together the passing offense.
44:15And I think the plan and just the coaching and just everything about it was going to have to be so pristine
44:21for them to even really have a shot. And the fact that it doesn't look like that and the quarterback feels like
44:27his head is spinning a little bit on top of the fact that you're at a talent deficiency in every single game.
44:33You have results that look like this. Like I it's five weeks, new, new play caller, new quarterback, so many new pieces.
44:39You don't want to make any sweeping or final proclamations about what the Falcons are or what the Dolphins are going to be.
44:46But from everything I've seen so far, it's just hard to imagine it not continuing this way and them leaving this season
44:52with a win, two wins and picking number one in the draft.
44:55And that being the reset moment for the franchise.
44:58I think we're just kind of headed in that direction.
45:00Yeah, which we try to talk ourselves into the optimistic case of it being a team that can win three, four games.
45:06And they're more exciting than this. But this was probably always the most likely outcome.
45:10And I will say credit to the Bengals defense for I still don't know how good they are.
45:15But if you're going to be at least average and competent, you should make the bad tanking team look like a bad tanking team.
45:22And they did. Like Jonathan Allen was awesome in this game.
45:25Dexter Lawrence put Savanea in the ground on one of those plays.
45:28I thought that that was super impressive. Boye Mafe had his moments.
45:32DJ Turner, I thought there was there was one play in the late first quarter where Chris Bell is like in a
45:38tight split and he's running a deep over. And DJ Turner does the thing where you start to play on top of
45:44the crosser, but he like lets it cross his face, like snaps behind him and then just undercuts and sprints to it.
45:50To have the athletic ability and like the just wherewithal to be able to make a play like that.
45:55And he goes and breaks it up like that was super impressive.
45:58So like they've got guys who are playing well on that side.
46:02I think you still want to see what the linebackers and safeties look like against good offenses.
46:06But the fact that half of the defense, I think, does look pretty promising, especially in a game like this.
46:12And you feel how dominant they can be against bad teams.
46:15That was that was pretty promising. It's interesting that it's been two games now, but they moved Dax Hill to the slot full time again.
46:22And Ivy's playing outside. And so they're still trying to piece together what the back seven is going to be over the course of the season.
46:29And I'll be curious again, like you just said, what does it look like in the long term?
46:34Because the front I feel good about. I mean, that was from the moment the season started.
46:39Essentially, you watch the way the front was playing.
46:41You're like, all right, this is easily the most improved position group in the entire NFL.
46:45It will probably be enough to carry the defense through the season, even if there are some inconsistencies on the back end.
46:51But how that group settles in the back seven, that's the number one thing I think you have to keep an eye
46:58on as you try to adjust your expectations for what the defense is capable of over the course of the season.
47:03All right, let's take one more quick break and then come back and chat a little Titans Texans.
47:08Before we get into the game, we were saving this conversation for the show, knowing we were going to talk about the Texans and the Titans.
47:15What do you think about the Texans trading a second round pick for Marvin Harrison Jr.?
47:20Okay, I joked about this before we went live on Sunday.
47:23And maybe this is partly because I think I still just believe in the Texans overall.
47:27There is like a kernel of me that believes that the power of friendship will heal Marvin Harrison Jr.
47:32Like, I do kind of believe that. And I don't really think it's just that.
47:37I do think that there is some element of...
47:39Obviously, Harrison himself is culpable for how bad things just went in or how up and down things were in Arizona.
47:45He had nice moments, but it was just very inconsistent.
47:48But I do think that there was a clear...
47:50Like, they did not know exactly what they wanted to do with him at any point.
47:54And I do think that there's some element of you get him in a room with the quarterback who helped make him look like a superstar in college.
48:02He's going to be like, I know what Marvin likes.
48:05I know where the ball is supposed to be.
48:07I know when he's going to be open. And I think there's another element of Marvin Harrison is going to know how my quarterback plays.
48:14The timing and all this stuff. And now he doesn't have to be the guy anymore.
48:19You have Nico Collins. You have a top 10 receiver in the NFL already.
48:23And that I think that there's a little bit more that they can kind of play off each other.
48:28And even still, like, Kayshawn Booty's been nice for them.
48:31Like, I kind of believe, man. I think that this is actually going to be okay.
48:35All right. I have a couple of responses to that.
48:38One, he didn't have to be the guy now when he was in Arizona.
48:42Michael Wilson is not Nico Collins, though. There's a different level of gravity.
48:45But the role that he's being asked to play within the offense, Trey McBride is there, too.
48:50Like, he already was in terms of the hierarchy of the pass catchers, like, third in the pecking order.
48:55And it still wasn't going well. And so that's why I have some reservations about that.
48:59I agree that Nico Collins is a true, like, true number one.
49:03And then he really does get to slot in as just a complimentary piece.
49:07But I would make the argument that he was already a complimentary piece in Arizona and he wasn't complimenting anything that well.
49:13It was still going very poorly. The other part of this, and that's one.
49:16Two, if he's going to be a complimentary piece, a second round pick for a team that's one and four is a
49:23lot to give up for a guy like that.
49:25That is a lot to give up for a player where the selling point before we even get into this is that,
49:31well, he doesn't have to be the best pass catcher on your team.
49:35I mean, I guess. But if he lifts the offense to a point that they feel like an offense that can win
49:41in the playoffs, I don't really care if he's the best or second best player on the team.
49:46That, to me, is worth a second round pick if they feel like they can get there.
49:50And if that feels weird when you look at the team that's one and four.
49:54But I think we still believe in this defense and this offense already is like 11th in DVOA.
49:59They're not a bad offense. Like they are probably closer to being something serious than we believe.
50:04And that's kind of a naughty conversation, too, because the run game still sucks.
50:08And I don't know if you can really be like I don't know if you can really be like a contending team
50:14just being like we can only throw the ball.
50:16But if they are trying to legitimately give themselves a chance, if they can get a receiver who is like a B minus wide receiver, too.
50:24And Kayshawn Booty can be this like third explosive piece for you.
50:27And they've got all the tight ends now. I'm like second round feels like a lot.
50:31But if that ends up being pick 57, I don't really care.
50:35My other big thing when it comes to just whether it's worth it to make a swing like this is just how
50:41the rolls shake out in the long term. And Jaden Higgins is going to be back next year.
50:46And I think Jaden Higgins is a pretty good player.
50:48And if you're giving up a second round pick for a guy, he should be part of your long term plans.
50:54And so when I think about a receiving for this year specifically, I get it in part because now Booty becomes like
51:00a true role player in a way that he's not right now.
51:03You're having to rely on him more than that.
51:06And so if you can slot Marvin Harrison in and you have like a true X receiver with Nico and now Marvin
51:12Harrison becomes a guy that is like a Z move around piece.
51:15You're using him on more crossers and just middle of the field stuff than the Cardinals were using him on.
51:21And you can kind of unlock the things he does best.
51:24They start using him in the way we thought Arizona might coming into the season.
51:28It gives that a way to get more out of him for the 2026 Texans specifically.
51:32I can get there. Like I actually do think that makes sense for the 2027 Texans.
51:37How does Marvin Harrison, how do Marvin Harrison Jr., Nico Collins and Jaden Higgins all fit into the same receiving core?
51:43I mean, I think to me, Marvin Harrison is like the move Z.
51:46Jaden Higgins and Nico can both play X. And I think that you can kind of move those guys around in and out of the slot.
51:53I think that that's the value of especially a guy like Jaden Higgins.
51:57They don't want to be an 11 personnel team all the time, which I do think makes or they shouldn't want to
52:03be, which I think makes things interesting. And I would say the other part, like what do you do with Jalen Noel then?
52:09And so I do think it makes the wide receiver room crowded.
52:13But I think if their idea is that we've always had this sort of player in Xavier Hutchinson.
52:18And now Marvin Harrison Jr. is just like super Xavier Hutchinson, which I realize does not sound like very high praise.
52:23A second round pick. Right. It does sound like a second round pick.
52:27But like that role is in the offense. It exists in the offense already.
52:31And if he can just be like a supercharged version of that, I think that that that can be worth it.
52:36We talked about this coming into the season. I think they were excited because Noel was hurt all of camp that they
52:43were seeing Jaden Higgins play in the slot and they really liked what he was giving them in there.
52:48And so if you get to a place where you have Nico is your ex, Marv is your Z, Jaden Higgins is playing inside more consistently.
52:55It's a weird trio of players slotted into those three roles because I think coming into the league, people thought all three
53:01of them would just be like very traditional ex receivers.
53:04But I could see it potentially shaking out. It's just a set of like, it's just a bunch of stuff to consider
53:10and juggle that I never would have imagined. Like when I was thinking about the Texans and what is holding back the
53:16Texans and what could potentially get the Texans offense back to a place where we can really maximize the season.
53:21Marvin Harrison Jr. is just not the piece I would have thought about getting them to that place.
53:26And so I don't really know how I feel about it.
53:29I think it's incredibly rich. I think you're paying for what his draft capital was, not what he has been so far.
53:35And I think it's kind of a weird fit.
53:38Do I think it can work out? Yes. But I think that's those are most of my thoughts and feelings about it.
53:44And I think all of that is fair. I do think I'm probably a little bit higher on the trade than most people would be.
53:51Maybe that's just me to like being too in the bag for what his previous draft status was rather than what he's been.
53:57But I really do think that there is something like with the particular issues that Marvin Harrison has had, something about getting
54:03a quarterback that we know he has chemistry with.
54:06There is something about that that feels like the power of friendship.
54:09Like there is something about that that I do think that can actually work, especially if he's now not going to have
54:15the, again, the stress of like he's got to be the wide receiver one.
54:19Which, again, in Arizona, he like kind of lost that anyway.
54:22But now in Houston, you know, like nobody even expects that of you because they have Nico.
54:27I'm excited might be strong. I'm intrigued by how this will work out.
54:30I'm looking forward to seeing what it looks like in practice.
54:33And I think a big part of that as we transition to this game.
54:37The quarterback for the Houston Texans. Sensation. Looks awesome.
54:39Let me do this. How many quarterbacks right now through five weeks are you positive are playing better than him?
54:45Like positive. I hate playing this game. I think that there's like three.
54:49I maybe four. I think. Patrick Mahomes. I think Patrick Mahomes.
54:52I think even Josh Allen for some of his silly moments.
54:55It's him. I think even Lamar Jackson is a weird one, not because of what he's been on the field, but just he has missed time.
55:02So like that one, I think just makes it a little bit.
55:05In terms of who's playing the best. I think Lamar is playing the best of all of them.
55:10Agree. He's just one that like if I was voting for all pro right now, I don't know if I would vote
55:16Lamar just because he's missed as much time as he has.
55:19But like when he's on the field, he's been incredible.
55:22And then I think you have two maybe cases with Brock Purdy and Trevor Lawrence.
55:26And other than that, I think it's TJ Strat.
55:28He's like. Did you say Mahomes? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
55:31I think it's Mahomes, Allen, Lamar, and then maybe it's for Brock Purdy and Trevor Lawrence.
55:35That's it. Everyone else. I don't think that's wrong.
55:38Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that's wrong. He was.
55:40He's showing you all the things you want to see.
55:43I mean, like, I think that's the most important thing to me is that the purest talent as a passer is like fully on display.
55:50Like he's making four or five throws a game where you're just reminded of just as a pure thrower of the football, how incredibly talented he is.
55:57That's been all over the place. And to me, how fast he's playing, how cleanly he's seeing things, the processing.
56:03Like you watch the way that he played yesterday and the idea that before the season we were kind of hemming and
56:09hawing about whether this would be a guy that's worth extending or, you know, did the Texans have a CJ Stroud problem?
56:15Like it just feels silly to think back on that when you look at what he was yesterday and what he's been for most of the season.
56:22A good chunk of it coming without Nico Collins and Jaden Higgins.
56:26Exactly. And I think what's funny, too, is I think him not getting the contract this offseason, there was some of like,
56:32oh, did Houston really want to pay him? I think it really was more CJ being like, I know what I'm worth
56:38and I'm going to go prove it. And I think that he is very obviously doing that.
56:42Like, I know the team is one in four, but he is playing so out of his mind.
56:47And it really is everything. Like, I think that he's not only returned to the level that we saw his rookie year
56:53or at times in like his, you know, when he's been at his best.
56:57He is better. Like he is better. He's cleaner.
57:00He that's what I mean. Yes, the way that he's seeing it is just much more advanced than it was when he was a rookie, which makes sense.
57:08You're three years removed from that. He was a very young player at that time.
57:12And now you're in year two of this system.
57:14He's a he played. He looks better right now than he looked when he was a rookie.
57:19Absolutely. He does. The last two points to make about this, just in terms of how well he's playing, packing order, all that stuff.
57:25I would throw Dak and Bryce Young are playing extremely well.
57:28Like those are the two other names I would throw out just in terms of guys who've looked really good this season.
57:34But if you're trying to make a group of like eight players that have played exceptional quarterback for the first five weeks
57:41up for the most part, CJ Stroud is absolutely part of that list.
57:44One hundred percent. Well, but that's that's why I framed it as like positive where I really think the only guys I'm positive or better are the three.
57:52The three headed dragon of superstar MVP guys. Like other than that, he really is that in that next mix of like
57:58he's just playing so far out of his mind.
58:00And I think what I loved about this game is you saw some of the just nuance to quarterback play, like the
58:06first the first play of the game. Nico Collins is running like a 12 yard stop route to the right hand side.
58:12And the way that Stroud goes through his drop back, he is like eyes straight down the midline so that he can
58:19hold the hook player in the middle. And then he throws it to Nico Collins's outside shoulder, knowing that the corner is playing on top inside leverage.
58:26And I'm like, man, that is just a really, really good quarterback play.
58:30And then there was another play about five minutes left in the first quarter.
58:33They're running like a little play action with Collins coming on a drift route from the right side.
58:38And then I think it's Hutchinson on like a deep hinge route from the left hand side.
58:43And he goes to Nico Collins first on the right hand side.
58:46But you can see the way that he like resets and backs up and buys himself space in the pocket while remaining so ready and springy to throw.
58:54And as soon as Hutchinson starts to flip his shoulders, balls out right on him.
58:58And it's just like the process, the nuance, how explosive he is as a thrower.
59:02He's doing everything. And then he had like four plays outside of the pocket in this game that were really impressive.
59:08Like he's just every week, man. He just blows me away.
59:11He's playing so, so well right now. Now, that there was a two play sequence that play you're talking about in that
59:17deep comeback to Hutchinson was the second one where it's exactly what I'm talking about, where it's a combination of just pure
59:23quarterback ability and then refined quarterback stuff. The play like right before that or like one of the plays right before that
59:29on that drive, there's a third down where he throws just like a beautiful crossword adult and Schultz, which that to me
59:35is an example of that's the pure town as a pastor type thing.
59:39And then the refinement processing type stuff is him getting all the way back to Hutchinson on that play on time with anticipation.
59:45Like when you combine those two things and it's not just a one-off, like those aren't the only flashes of those two traits that we saw.
59:52We're seeing them over and over and over again this year.
59:55And it's just, it's a really exciting place to be.
59:58The problem is so much of the rest of the offense continues to be just insanely frustrating, but their inability to move
60:04the ball on the ground, all of the penalties that they're taking.
60:07I just don't know how I should feel about this group in the long term.
60:12Like there's part of me that because the passing game looks as dynamic as it does, the quarterback looks as good as he does.
60:18Nico Collins is back. When you throw Marvin here, whatever you think of the price, they're going to have more talent at the pass catching spots.
60:25Part of me wants to be really bullish on the offense as a whole because of all of that.
60:31And then I think about just some of the bones of it and what it's built on and how inconsistent and inefficient
60:37and ineffective a lot of that still looks. And I'd struggle to figure out where I should land on the group overall.
60:43I do still feel like they're going to have a limited ceiling if the run game is going to be what it's going to be.
60:50I think, though, the offense, even for as bad as the run game was last year, the offense was fine last year
60:56until the bottom really fell out with Nico Collins misses time.
60:59Dalton Schultz, I think, misses time. The offensive line gets more banged up and falls away.
61:03And until the bottom really, really cratered out for them, Stroud was playing pretty well for the most part.
61:08And they could keep up in these games and let the defense win it for them.
61:13So I think the formula now is if we assume the defense can get back to some level of they can win
61:19games for them, and I do think that that's absolutely possible.
61:22I kind of do think that unless the bottom really falls out again, like two offensive line injuries, Nico misses time again,
61:28like I kind of think so long as they have enough of a floor around CJ Stroud, he can play well enough
61:34to keep them in a lot of these games.
61:36And I don't think he's going to spiral the way that he did, obviously, at the end of last season.
61:42Because, again, I think a lot of that was, you know, he's getting into his own head and stuff like that.
61:48But the team was just horrendous. Like by that point in the season, especially in the playoffs, the team was just not good.
61:54And I do think even if they have their issues now, the floor for the offense is a lot higher with the talent that they have right now.
62:02Yeah, I think he's just he's playing even better than he was last year.
62:06The offense was pretty good last season. We talked about this a lot in the offseason.
62:10Like before the playoff catastrophes, they were 12th in the paper drop back when he was on the field last year.
62:16Like they weren't above average offense. And that was with him playing pretty well.
62:20He's playing better than pretty well right now. And the rest of the circle, it almost reminds me a little bit of
62:26the conversation we had about the Bengals, where the Texans are just the same.
62:29The Texans are just the same. But it's the same story again.
62:33Yeah, yeah. The same team they were last year.
62:35We did all of this stuff all offseason, where we made all these additions low on the offensive line and the run game is going to be better.
62:43And we have all these tight ends. And we're back in a place where the entire offense is just based around how
62:49good CJ Stroud and Nico Collins can be. And then you have the defense.
62:53And I do think that Nico Collins or I do think CJ Stroud is playing better than he was last year.
62:59And so you can talk yourself into the results and the overall team being better.
63:03But we are in a very, very similar spot to the exact same place that we were for most of last season.
63:09It really does feel like we're pretty much back in the same spot.
63:12And at least the run game is bad. At least last year, it did really feel like they were truly the worst in the NFL.
63:19They at least have had more moments, I feel like, this year.
63:23And then the other thing is that Houston team from last year, I still do think they were good enough to win
63:29the Super Bowl if Nico Collins doesn't get hurt.
63:31It would have been ugly and they would have needed some weird games, obviously.
63:35But like they could have done it. And I really do think that if he can be healthy, because like I will
63:41say, Nico Collins is such a cool expression of, I think right now in the NFL, the eight or nine teams that
63:47have like a true X put him on the outside receiver.
63:50Those guys are such load bearing pieces for their offense.
63:53And the fact that Nico Collins is one of those guys and they have one, that does feel like a little bit
63:59of a leg up in where the NFL is right now.
64:02I actually think that's another layer to the Marvin Harrison Jr.
64:05trade is that Nico Collins has struggled to stay healthy.
64:08And so to give yourself a little bit of insurance, and obviously Marvin Harrison Jr.
64:12isn't Nico Collins. We know that. But to give yourself a little bit of insurance of a player that we can kind
64:18of credibly rely on to be like a bigger piece of the passing offense than Kayshawn Booty or Xavier Hutchinson.
64:23I do think that should be part of the thought process where even if there's a little bit of redundancy and we're
64:29figuring out how it's all going to look in a crowded room, protecting yourself and giving yourself a little bit of insurance
64:35when Nico has missed that much time and is that load bearing.
64:39That's a worthwhile consideration. Yeah. So I just I feel dumb being excited about the one in 14 that still can't run the ball.
64:45But I don't know, man. I still like this football team.
64:48So a big part of this, right? If we're trying to talk ourselves into the Texans is the defense being a top three game swinging unit.
64:56They play the Titans yesterday. But a week after everyone was talking about the sky falling in Houston based on the way that they played against Dallas.
65:03What was your impression of what you saw from the Texans defense yesterday?
65:07I thought they were better. I think the front looked amazing, which I mean, the front really has not been the problem for most of the season anyway.
65:14I think in the back end, there's still dropping a couple of coverages.
65:18But I think that you saw that having Aziz Alshair, I think, did clean some stuff up.
65:23I honestly think, though, especially for the first half of this game, I just don't think the Titans played well on offense.
65:29I don't think Cam Ward was seeing it very well.
65:31I don't think that he was accurate. I just don't think that he played a very good first half of football.
65:37And by the time you get to the second half, there are three scores behind.
65:41And at that point, it doesn't really matter what they were able to do in the second half.
65:46So this actually felt more to me like and, you know, I think you still have to be a pretty good defense
65:52to take advantage of all this stuff. But this did feel more to me like the Titans offense just kind of falling on its face.
65:59It's kind of the same old story, man. I don't really know what else to say at this point.
66:04A lot of the Cam, a lot of Cam Ward games feel really similar right now where there are stretches where they're completely lost, where it doesn't.
66:12We talked about this. What is the purpose of this play?
66:15What are you trying to accomplish? What is he supposed to be seeing?
66:18And you don't have satisfactory answers to any of that.
66:21And then there are a couple drops mixed in there where he has like a ridiculous rip throw over the middle of
66:27the field that Wondell Robinson can't hang on to.
66:30That's a consistent feature in all of these. And then there are three or four throws he makes over the course of the game.
66:36You're like, holy shit, that's an impressive play. Like it's they all kind of feel the same right now.
66:41And again, that may feel a little reductionist, but I don't think that's unfair to say.
66:46Like that's just kind of where I am with this group.
66:49A hundred percent. And like he's not playing his best ball right now.
66:52And I think that you would hope ideally for a young quarterback is that you have enough good scheme, good players around
66:59him that when he finally has those drives and those stretches where it's coming along, that you're not squandering it.
67:04And that's just not where this team is at right now.
67:07Like, again, I think in the first half, a lot of the issues were on Cam Ward.
67:12There's a third and three inside the 10 where he just doesn't even give Io Manor a shot at a fade ball like at all.
67:19Like he just throws it out of bounds early in the second quarter.
67:22There's a second and five. They have like a weak choice route that is wide open at the sticks and he just
67:28turns it down and scrambles to his right. And he ends up making a throw that converts the sticks to Wondell Robinson.
67:34But it's like we just don't need to make it that difficult because then you're living in chaos for for really no reason.
67:41They have a rollout play where they're running like a flat corner smash concept and he's two steps late throwing the corner
67:47and it's closed and Jake Hansen gets a hand up on it.
67:50Like he he did not play well, I think, in the first half.
67:54And then you get to the second half. He has the throw to Wondell Robinson over the middle that you mentioned where he can't hang on to it.
68:01There's a deep stop where Chimiri Dike just like falls as he's turning around on the stop route and he isn't able to catch that.
68:08And then the deep ball that he throws to Tate, it's a 65 yard ball in the air.
68:13That's like a smidgen under thrown. But Tate just like loses it in the air and overruns it.
68:18It's good enough. It was good enough. When you're throwing it 65 yards in the air, buddy, if you can get it
68:24to the end zone, that's a good throw. And Tate just like loses it and can't make a play on it.
68:30And so it's like when you finally get him making his plays, the other guys are failing around him.
68:35So it and that's not to excuse him again.
68:38I do not think he played well in the first half, but you would hope that a young quarterback gets some help
68:44when he starts to have it come around. And he's not getting that either.
68:47So it really does feel like it's everything for this Titans offense.
68:51We talked about we want to talk about this game in part because the Harrison trade and just the what we saw from the Texans offense.
68:58I don't this is unfair. I kind of just want to not talk about the Titans for like six weeks and not because it's there.
69:05It's not fun to watch them or not because they're bad.
69:08I just feel like at this point, I'm not we're not getting a lot by doing the cam word evaluation with a new offensive system.
69:15Every two weeks in the middle of like before the halfway point of the season.
69:19Like I just there's really I think it would just need to let this thing breathe.
69:23But let me because I at this point, there's just no value in trying to like figure out what he is every single week in these circumstances.
69:31Like let you see what the rest of the season looks like.
69:34Get to the back half of the year. Try to get an understanding of where he is, what that means for the
69:40team, what that means for the franchise, what that means for the offensive staff, all of that stuff.
69:45It has been ugly so far, but we've learned so much about the just how wrong it is to like slam the
69:51door on all of these guys that it's we can't do that yet.
69:55And I think we should do that yet. But it we're in a frustrating place where it just again seems like every
70:01two weeks when we do this, we're watching the same game over and over and over again.
70:05And if that continues into December, there's probably a conversation to be had.
70:09But right now, I just feel like we're kind of in like a weird, frustrating holding pattern with cam word and the Titans offense overall.
70:16It really does feel like it's the same game.
70:18If it was like because you have some of these moments where players are going through stuff or, you know, it's a
70:24new coaching staff trying to figure out where every game feels like different problems.
70:28Like, honestly, in some ways, a lot of the Chargers like offense stuff does feel like a different problem every week.
70:34And I think that that in some ways is worth talking about the Titans game.
70:38It's like you could swap out the jerseys in the box score and it doesn't really matter.
70:43It feels like it is a lot of the same stuff.
70:46I'm open to being surprised, but at this point, it's not really happening.
70:49All right. That is all we've got today. We will be back tomorrow.
70:53If you want to check in with the YouTube channel or the podcast feed, our Monday night recap will be available.
70:59We'll be available to you. Rams bills is a good one.
71:02Very much looking forward to that for now. That's all we got.
71:05Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.
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